On Sunday 10 January Andrew Marr interviewed Prime Minister Gordon Brown. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used. ANDREW MARR:  David Cameron on the Andrew Marr Show |
David Cameron acknowledged last week that most people in the country will be contemplating the prospect of the months of electioneering with emotions somewhere on a scale between "indifference and dread", but he still launched his campaign, didn't he? Mr Cameron says he wants "a good, clean fight" and called on politicians of all parties to be "honest about the problems facing the country and how they can be resolved." Well that would be nice, though when it comes to the biggest problem of all - the ballooning deficit - the Tories themselves stand accused of being less than transparent about the scale of the cuts they're planning and exactly where that axe will fall. David Cameron is with me now. Good morning. DAVID CAMERON: Good morning. ANDREW MARR: No Jonathan Ross questions, I promise. After what we've heard from Alistair Darling about the budget and so on - I know you would like an election you know sooner rather than later and all the rest of it, but you're sort of assuming May, presumably? DAVID CAMERON: Ready at any time. I mean I think the country needs an election. I think, if anything, the last week demonstrates that we need to have strong, determined leadership from a united government. We can't get that from Labour and Gordon Brown, and an increasing number of people in the Labour Party even seem to be saying that. But when you contemplate the problems we have in our country - whether it's the budget deficit, whether it's the need to get Afghanistan right, whether it's the deep social problems we have - there's never been a time when we've more needed strong, decisive leadership from a united team. Now I think the Conservatives offer that and I think the government simply and frankly can't. ANDREW MARR: You say "team", but the posters are of course all of you. DAVID CAMERON: Let me say something about the team because actually one of the things I'm proudest of in the last four years, getting the Conservative Party back onto the front foot and into the centre ground of British politics, is to build a very strong team. And you know I got William Hague back into the front line. I think he'd make an excellent Foreign Secretary. I got Ken Clarke, the last person to lead us out of recession and into recovery. ANDREW MARR: (over) Shouldn't we see them on the posters a bit? DAVID CAMERON: Well maybe we will. You'll have to wait and see. We've got plenty more posters to come. But I think you know it is important. I don't believe that a Prime Minister can be the chief operating officer, the chief executive, the chairman, the chief financial officer. You can't do all those things. You've got to have a strong team. I think I've built a very strong one. Quite interesting actually last week, William Hague and George Osborne going out to Afghanistan together - the first Shadow Chancellor, the man who's going to be in charge of the money, on the frontline seeing what is happening in Afghanistan … ANDREW MARR: Sure. DAVID CAMERON: And I think that will help avoid the problems we've had in the past where, frankly, the Chancellor was rather disengaged from the very important things our troops were doing overseas, as we can see in the papers today. ANDREW MARR: I do want to come onto the money, you'll be surprised to hear, a little later on. But can I first of all ask about you because you know I've been interviewing you a fair number of times - like everybody else observing you - and I'm still a little confused about who really you are. Are you, going back to the 1970s, are you a kind of new Thatcher figure who really wants to shake up the state; who wants to shrink the state not just because there's a financial problem at the moment, but because it's the right thing to do and change the way this country is governed in a radical way? Or do you think, you know post-Thatcher, post-Blair and so on, we came to a sort of middle ground, which you want to occupy? Which of those two things is it? DAVID CAMERON: I don't think about this by looking backwards. I think about it by looking forward. I mean I am a modern, compassionate Conservative. Modern … ANDREW MARR: Looking forward, how radical, how much of a shake up will this country see if you win a majority in parliament? DAVID CAMERON: It will be a radical shake up because we need a radical shake up. Above all, the word I would use to describe almost everything that I'm about is 'responsibility'. We need responsibility in our economy because we've got to start living within our means, so government's going to have to cut its cloth accordingly. You know last week, the Prime Minister sat in this chair and talked about increasing public spending. I think that's deeply misleading. The fact is many departments are going to have to have cuts and we need to say that frankly and clearly. Government's got to live within its means. That's responsibility. And when it comes to the state and society, I do think we need to have really quite a big shake up in terms of actually recognising - whether it's running our public services or whether it's dealing with social problems - we need a revolution in responsibility where we give responsibility back to people. Now whether that's the nurse … ANDREW MARR: (over) Right, so can I … DAVID CAMERON: Okay, go on. ANDREW MARR: … jump on that? DAVID CAMERON: Sure. ANDREW MARR: Because if you're going to hand responsibility back to people, that must involve pulling the state back quite radically and quite drastically? DAVID CAMERON: Well in some cases, it means asking has the state gone too far? ANDREW MARR: Yes. DAVID CAMERON: I would argue identity cards, the identity register, some of these massive computer databases. We pass far too many laws, we have far too many regulations, we are trying to control too many aspects of people's lives. In those ways, yes I would cut back the state in those ways. I think you know if you take the issue about the whole you know safeguarding and criminal records and all the rest of it. We are now entering into too many parts of people's lives and I do want to see the state pull back in that way. If though by that do you mean, do you think somehow is this the old Tories of the 1980s - no, it isn't. You know I have changed the Conservative Party. If we win the next election … ANDREW MARR: (over) Why not? Why shouldn't it be the old Tories of the 1980s? DAVID CAMERON: Well because I think we … Look, the great thing about the Conservative Party is that we have values and principles - to me responsibility being the most important one - and we learn from what happens in our country, we are in touch with the developments and changes, and we apply our principles to the modern world. And so you know we have made changes in the party and this is a modern, compassionate Conservative Party and it's not going to go backwards. I haven't, I haven't made these changes as some sort of wheeze to get elected. This is what I am. This is who I am. And this is what I want to be if we form the next government of this country, and people need to know that. ANDREW MARR: Well let's talk about the numbers a bit. DAVID CAMERON: Sorry, perhaps the most tangible example of that is the NHS. I mean you know we're talking about it in the posters … ANDREW MARR: (over) We'll come to the NHS, sure. DAVID CAMERON: … but very, very frank and clear and positive as the first part of our campaign is the NHS is our number one priority. We do not want to see the state withdraw from that in any shape or form. We back it, we support it, and we want to make it better, and we set out in our manifesto this week exactly how we'd go about doing that. ANDREW MARR: That and what's been said about Afghanistan and the possibility of more infantry battalions and supporting the war there, and indeed the overseas aid budget. If you are going to protect and indeed expand in some respect those areas, other government departments are going to have to take really big hits - something of the order of 20%. DAVID CAMERON: Well we haven't put a figure on it, but, unlike the Prime Minister, I'm very happy to sit in this chair and to say yes there will be cuts, and I think that is a very big difference. We are … ANDREW MARR: (over) And when I say something like 20% or a fifth, I'm not wildly out, am I? DAVID CAMERON: On the government's own figures, which they should admit to because they are their figures, the IFS say that under their plans, they are planning cuts of less than 20% but in some departments. But, look, I think more important than putting specific figures on is actually naming some of the things you're going to do. ANDREW MARR: Ah, well we could do with a bit of that. DAVID CAMERON: Well I think … Look, I would argue we have done that. ANDREW MARR: Sorry, but before we go through that list because we've done this already, the list that we know about so far is still nothing like enough to make the savings that you've been talking about. DAVID CAMERON: I accept it's not enough, but you know you've got a government saying they're going to increase public spending, right? That I think is, as I said, misleading because actually there are going to be cuts. We're being frank about the cuts. The second thing, we're being frank about those things we'd like to withdraw from, which I've mentioned already - the ID cards, the regional assemblies, the databases and the rest of it. We've also gone further from that. No opposition in my political lifetime has done this and said look, here are some things that we don't actually want to do, but we know we have to do. So we're going to ask people to retire a year later. We've said that we're going to freeze public sector pay for all but the million lowest paid workers. We've identified some benefits that people on middle and higher incomes (like the Child Trust Fund) shouldn't get. We've actually outlined exactly the one third cut in Whitehall that we'd make. These are a long … ANDREW MARR: (over) And we both know that these … DAVID CAMERON: (over) Yes. ANDREW MARR: And we both know the numbers are nothing like, as I said, enough to get you towards where you want to be. So … DAVID CAMERON: (over) In contrast with what the government said, it's a very big contrast, and so … ANDREW MARR: But it's not enough … DAVID CAMERON: (over) It's not enough … ANDREW MARR: … to get you through the next five months, is it? DAVID CAMERON: Well I think we have still got to have another budget from the government. And the positive thing, if there is a sort of positive development from the sort of shambles of this week, is it does now look as if far from the Chancellor and the Prime Minister, who've spent almost all of the last year attacking the Conservative Party for saying we're being too aggressive about the budget deficit, are now actually coming straight onto our ground and saying well actually the Conservatives have got this right. We do need to make reductions; we need to identify those reductions. And what I can tell you, Andrew, is if they in that budget set out some reductions that we think make sense, we won't play politics with it. We'll say yes, good, right, we'll agree with it. ANDREW MARR: (over) You'll have to agree with it. But I don't recall, I don't recall … DAVID CAMERON: (over) Fair enough. But you don't have to, you never have to agree with what the government say … ANDREW MARR: Alright. DAVID CAMERON: … but I would say one of the things I've brought to the Conservative Party … ANDREW MARR: Yeah, okay. DAVID CAMERON: … is when they do something good and right - like the school reforms, like the need for an independent nuclear deterrent, like what we're doing in Afghanistan - they have my support. I think you know people watching this are fed up with competition … ANDREW MARR: (over) The nuclear deterrent by the way, the nuclear deterrent by the way is going to stay come what may, is it? DAVID CAMERON: We support an independent nuclear deterrent … ANDREW MARR: Okay. DAVID CAMERON: … always have. ANDREW MARR: I don't recall the Chancellor saying, "Do you know, the Conservatives got this right …", but he has said, but he has said … DAVID CAMERON: (over) Very interesting what he said. ANDREW MARR: … that he's going to … He has said, he has talked about cuts and he talked about those being "non-negotiable" and he's talked about "halving the deficit in four years." DAVID CAMERON: Yuh. ANDREW MARR: Now what I'm not clear about is whether you want to go further; whether you want the actual amount of money taken out of government budgets to be more than the 57/58 billion pounds the government are talking about, or whether you simply want to start the process earlier? DAVID CAMERON: Well it's both and one leads to the other. And I think of course, just to rewind, of course the Chancellor hasn't said the Conservatives are right … ANDREW MARR: (over) No, no, I'm teasing you. DAVID CAMERON: … but it's quite interesting. On the Today programme a few weeks ago, he actually said that other departments were going to be broadly flat. Now, again, that was completely misleading. He's now stopping being misleading and talking about cuts. So they have now accepted what we have been saying for months and months, and I think that is an important moment in our politics. Now in terms of what we do with the budget deficit, I do think we need to make more progress more quickly. I don't think … The government's plan is to put every decision off until after the election, to say as little as possible between now and then … ANDREW MARR: (over) Because they say the recovery is still too weak. DAVID CAMERON: But I think the growing … And they've said that, you're right, for the last year. But if you look at what others are now saying - if you look at the IMF, the OECD, the CBI, many, many economists - they're all now actually I think joining our side of the argument and saying cutting the deficit and having a plan that starts now is not an alternative to a growing economy … ANDREW MARR: Right. DAVID CAMERON: … it's part of getting the economy to grow. So we think it should start now. And some of the things I've talked about you know would take place - we've said very clearly, I think I said on this programme we would have an emergency budget within fifty days. It would be about growth - and we might come on and talk about growth as well - ANDREW MARR: Sure. DAVID CAMERON: … but it would start to do some of those things. And that's what the government should do as well. ANDREW MARR: So you would more than halve the deficit within four years or three years or whatever it would be? DAVID CAMERON: We think you have to go further than what the government say. You have to start earlier. The Governor of the Bank of England has talked about trying to get rid of most of the structural elements of the budget deficit with a parliament, and so we do need to … ANDREW MARR: (over) A couple of specifics, if I may. The government's 0.5% rise in national insurance. George Osborne described that as "a laser guided missile pointing at the heart of the recovery", so presumably the minute you could, you would shoot that missile down or call it back or whatever you do with a missile? DAVID CAMERON: We don't think it's the right approach, we don't like it. A tax on jobs when you're trying to get the economy growing … ANDREW MARR: (over) So you would come in and repeal that? DAVID CAMERON: (over) Hold on. No, no. We've said that we are looking as hard as we can at public spending programmes to see if we can find a way of avoiding the most damaging parts of the national insurance increase. We haven't managed to do that yet. We're working on it as hard as we can. But if it … ANDREW MARR: (over) So under the Conservatives, that missile would carry on flying, would it? DAVID CAMERON: At the moment, that missile is flying. We are desperately trying to … ANDREW MARR: (over) And you would carry on … DAVID CAMERON: … we are desperately trying to shoot it down. But this is an indication of how far from spewing out commitments and being loose with our language or anything else, we are being very disciplined. We will not make a pledge to get rid of that national insurance contribution increase until we can find a way of paying for it. ANDREW MARR: And yet it's difficult. You … DAVID CAMERON: (over) So it is very difficult and I totally accept it is difficult. ANDREW MARR: You admitted very frankly earlier in the week that you got into a bit of a mess over the married couple's tax allowance issue. But we're still in a problem there, aren't we, because we know that you want to recognise marriage in the tax system but have absolutely no idea either how or when or for whom you'd do that? DAVID CAMERON: Well obviously it would be a change that would be for married couples and for couples in a civil partnership. And the reason for doing it is that in the responsible society we see, we do want to reward commitment and we think marriage is a good institution, so we will … ANDREW MARR: (over) So how would you do it? DAVID CAMERON: Well we haven't said that yet. As I've said, it's a commitment we can make and it will happen during a parliament. But in these straitened times we live in, in these difficult times with this massive budget deficit, we have to be very careful … ANDREW MARR: Okay. DAVID CAMERON: … before we make specific measures. ANDREW MARR: So that's not a promise? The 0.5% income ta… national insurance cut is not a promise. What about the promise you made on companies who were going to employ people who'd been unemployed for three months or more? You were going to give them a £3,500 national insurance tax break to get those people back into work. Unemployment is still very, very high and rising. Is that commitment still there? DAVID CAMERON: No, no, we made a series of promises which were funded commitments on national insurance … ANDREW MARR: (over) And that's one of them, is it? DAVID CAMERON: And that is one of them. And obviously the issue as well, as we come out of … as we try and come out of recession, of saying to new companies, sorry companies that start up, that they shouldn't have to pay national insurance on their first ten employees. We've got to grow out of this recession. ANDREW MARR: (over) Well I was going to ask you about growth because that's the other side of it. You know I asked the Prime Minister last week how this country was going to earn its living, and I ask you the same question. DAVID CAMERON: Well we've got to earn our living … I thought what the Prime Minister said last week was far too much based on government spending was somehow going to pull us out of recession, and I think that is wrong. We're going to get out of this recession by trading our way out, by business deciding to employ people to create wealth, to go after new markets, to export. And so we need to … ANDREW MARR: So how can you help small businesses in that case, for instance? DAVID CAMERON: Okay, let me give you … I can give you some announcements today of things that we would do that would be different … ANDREW MARR: Alright. DAVID CAMERON: … for small business. The first one. It takes something like thirteen to fourteen days to start a new business in this country. In America, it's half as long. We have the ambition of making this one of the fastest places in the world to start up a new business. That's the first thing. The second thing is the current insolvency threshold is £750. We would lift that to £2,000 because when you look at the figures more small … ANDREW MARR: (over) So fewer people would go bankrupt? DAVID CAMERON: Well more small businesses have gone bankrupt in this recession than in previous recessions, and a number have been pushed there by the government itself. The third thing, which may sound like a small thing but I think it's actually significant - a huge number of small businesses are started in people's homes. But do you know what? Many social landlords forbid you to run a business from your home. We're going to change that as well in discussion with social landlords. So those are three big changes to help get small businesses because that's where the jobs are, that's where the wealth, that's where the enterprise has got to come from. And also to help with that, we've got to get rid of this anti-aspiration, anti-achievement culture that has grown up under Labour and frankly this Prime Minister is making worse. The message that seems to be coming out of Labour at the moment is don't start a business, don't buy your home, don't try and leave money to your children, don't try and get on. They've made it so difficult to employ people, so difficult to start a business. All of that is going to change. ANDREW MARR: People will perhaps concentrate for longer if you avoid talking about the Labour Party. DAVID CAMERON: (over) Yuh, I was just making … ANDREW MARR: The Prime Minister last week spent a lot of time talking about the Conservatives. Let me ask you about one other spending related matter. Very, very important to a lot of the people, the promise that was made about getting single rooms in hospitals across the board. Andrew Lansley made that promise. Is that still operative? DAVID CAMERON: Well I made this very clear at the time of our health manifesto. One of the points of having a draft manifesto is to be very clear about what you can commit to clearly … ANDREW MARR: Yeah. DAVID CAMERON: … and what is something you would like to do and is an aspiration. Single rooms, we support because it's good for patient choice. It's also good for infection control. But we cannot … ANDREW MARR: (over) And you said … Within five years, you said. DAVID CAMERON: Well we can't repeat that commitment. That's why it's so clearly in our … ANDREW MARR: (over) Okay, so that's gone? DAVID CAMERON: No, it hasn't gone because we … ANDREW MARR: (over) the commitment was within five years this will happen, and what you're saying is I can't say that anymore. DAVID CAMERON: Yes, but because we are protecting the NHS budget, we're the only party that's said that health spending is different. We are going to protect that and it will grow in real terms. I think we'll be able to make quite a lot of progress on building single rooms because actually every time you go to a hospital, if you ask them "If you had your time again, would you have more single rooms?", almost all of them say yes. ANDREW MARR: (simultaneously) Say yes. DAVID CAMERON: So there's big progress that can be made. But part of the point of having a draft manifesto is to be very clear, including on programmes like this, about what we can commit to and what in these very difficult times we can't. ANDREW MARR: Do you agree with the former Archbishop of Canterbury, George Carey, that if this country's population rose to 70 million, that would be intolerable; it would create social pressures and it would impose too much on traditional British hospitality? DAVID CAMERON: I don't support our population going to 70 million. I put it in my own way, slightly different to George Carey. I think we should be focusing on the pressure on our public services - on health and education and housing. And I think that that's why when I made a big speech about immigration about a year and a half ago, I very much put it in the context of having a proper policy towards population because … ANDREW MARR: You've said you want a cap … DAVID CAMERON: Yuh. ANDREW MARR: … on the numbers coming into this country, but you haven't told us where that cap would be. DAVID CAMERON: No, that's right. It has to be set each year. ANDREW MARR: Can you give us some sort of indication? DAVID CAMERON: I can. Let me give you an indication. Current net … Look, in a country like Britain you're going to have large numbers of people going and living abroad every year and working abroad, and also large numbers of people coming in. It seems to me what matters … ANDREW MARR: (over) Is the net figure. DAVID CAMERON: … the pressure is the net figure. ANDREW MARR: Yuh. DAVID CAMERON: In the last decade, net immigration in some years has been sort of 200,000 - so implying a 2 million increase over a decade, which I think is too much. And so the changes we would make - a points system with a limit and saying that new EU countries that join the European Union, there should be transitional controls. We would like to see net immigration in the tens of thousands rather than the hundreds of thousands. I don't think that's unrealistic. That's the sort of figure it was in the 1990s and I think we should see that again. I'm in favour of immigration, we've benefited from immigration, but I think the pressures - particularly on our public services - have been very great. ANDREW MARR: And to be clear, there will be a specific figure? There will be a real cap that you will announce and stick to? DAVID CAMERON: We'll do that each year because part of this is to reflect our economic needs. I mean I think there is an important point. We should also … ANDREW MARR: (over) Okay, it'll be a clear annual figure that people will be able to see? DAVID CAMERON: It should be a clear annual figure that people should see because I think a points system without a limit doesn't make much sense. But we should be trying to capture the benefit of immigration for our economy. I mean if you take the issue of students where we made an announcement this week, you know Britain has got a massive competitive advantage - great universities, great colleges, the English language. We should be attracting the best students from India and China and Brazil, the countries of the future, to come and study here. Then to go home, but to want to do business with Britain for their lives. Instead our system currently seems a lot of people come, do endless courses … ANDREW MARR: Okay. DAVID CAMERON: … and are actually working here rather than being a proper student visa situation. ANDREW MARR: It might seem parochial, but let me ask you about the BBC. After five years of a Cameron government, would you on balance like to see the BBC smaller and relatively weaker and, for instance, Sky therefore relatively stronger? DAVID CAMERON: No, not smaller and weaker. I'm a big supporter of the BBC. I actually support the licence fee. I worked in television for a number of years and I think the fact that British television is good, and one of the reasons for that is you've got advertising revenue flowing into commercial television, you've got subscription revenue flowing into commercial television, you've got subscription revenue flowing mostly into Sky, and you've got the licence fee flowing into the BBC and that supports the good original production that we all want to see. So I support a strong … ANDREW MARR: (over) Do you like the structure at the moment of the Trust and so on, or would you like to see that …? DAVID CAMERON: (over) No, I don't. There are lots of things I don't like and we'll come onto that. First of all, I think the BBC should be regulated more like other media organisations. I don't think the BBC Trust works and we've been pretty clear about that. The second thing is I think sometimes there are sort of territorial extensions by the BBC into areas where, frankly, they are in danger of sort of squashing the smaller commercial operators … ANDREW MARR: (over) Magazines? DAVID CAMERON: … and we all see that in our own … Magazines and some of the things on the Internet … ANDREW MARR: Could I ask … DAVID CAMERON: … that we see in our own constituencies. But that shouldn't be mistaken … I actually support the licence fee, the BBC and the current structure of broadcasting. ANDREW MARR: Well I'm interested you say you support the licence fee because Greg Dyke, who's been advising, former boss of the BBC of course - it seems that he may suggest the BBC's funded out of general taxation, which would mean that if I was interviewing you and you were Prime Minister, I would feel that what's funding this studio would be run by you … DAVID CAMERON: (over) I think yuh … ANDREW MARR: … would be run by you. DAVID CAMERON: I think there is a problem with that and we look at these things, as you should. I mean the advantage is that if you didn't have all the paraphernalia of the licence fee arrangements, you could actually make it much lower because you wouldn't have the administrative costs. But I do recognise if you fund the BBC directly, there are real questions about the dangers of state control. So I'm not unaware of these problems and be in no doubt it will be … ANDREW MARR: (over) But on balance you're against the directive? DAVID CAMERON: (over) On balance, that is not something that we've suggested. Be in no doubt it would be a policy written by Jeremy Hunt, my very good Culture Secretary … ANDREW MARR: Sure. DAVID CAMERON: … and the team. And Greg is going to give us some very good advice, I'm sure, but … ANDREW MARR: Last BBC question. When James Murdoch says that he finds the scope of its ambitions and its scale "chilling", is that a word that you would recognise? DAVID CAMERON: I wouldn't put it that way myself. But as someone who travels round the country a huge amount, I've got to say when you go into local radio and when you go and talk to local newspapers at the moment and you see the contrast between the immense resources of the BBC because of the guarantee of the licence fee, and what they're having to do, there is a real contrast. There is a problem at the moment; is that the BBC has become very dominant and well-funded, and commercial television … ANDREW MARR: Right. DAVID CAMERON: And I think there's a lot we need to change in terms of loosening up the rules for commercial operators … ANDREW MARR: Yeah, okay. DAVID CAMERON: … so actually there can be … What we want is the same as what I think the whole public wants: good, competitive media; good, strong, original production; good, robust production of news and information. That's what we all want. ANDREW MARR: Let's come onto the next few months of election campaigning. How important are these debates going to be to you? DAVID CAMERON: I think they'll be very important. I mean I'm delighted they're happening because I mean there is a danger right now that if all this election is about is the sort of production of competitive dossiers, we're going to bore the public to tears, and we've got to get across … ANDREW MARR: Can the debates be interesting? DAVID CAMERON: I hope so. And the main thing I'd say is the politicians have got to recognise this is not our campaign, this is not our election. This is the public's election, this is your election, and we have got to open it up. And we're going to try all sorts of ways, including using lots of innovative stuff on the Internet, of getting people involved and making sure it's their priorities. ANDREW MARR: You're going to heavily outspend Labour, aren't you - 18 million or so you've raised. Is that right? Is that true? DAVID CAMERON: Well I see it in a slightly different way. We are going to … We will spend 18 million. I think that's the limit, and if we can spend that, we will. But I would compare that with the 500 million that the Central Office of Information, the government's advertising arm, spent last year. The government is spending vast sums of money. They have got more spin doctors, more advisers, more press officers than they've ever had. So I think the money we're spending is responsible. And by the way, when I became Leader of the Conservative Party, we had £23 million of debt. We have now just £5 million of debts. I hope that is a precursor for what we can do with the country's balance sheet. So we are in a much stronger position, much broader sources of funding, and I think we will spend 18 million in a positive campaign to give people choice. ANDREW MARR: When it comes to parliament, you've said that everybody, including peers, should be UK taxpayers and domiciled here. Have you had a conversation with Lord Ashcroft about that? DAVID CAMERON: Yes, I told him about that decision. ANDREW MARR: And what did he say? DAVID CAMERON: He said he's very happy with it and thinks it's the right thing to do. I think it just puts beyond doubt that if you sit in parliament, you should be or be treated as a proper UK taxpayer. And I think it's time we did that and just got that done. And I would be very happy … The government … There's a bill at the moment going through parliament through which we could do it, and if they want to cooperate with me and get it done now, I'd be very happy. ANDREW MARR: Finally, you've talked about repatriating British sovereignty or aspects of British sovereignty if you become Prime Minister. Is that simply words or are you really, have you got real concrete plans that you will get going on as soon as you come in? And what are they? DAVID CAMERON: Well we believe that too many powers have been passed from Westminster to Brussels … ANDREW MARR: Yuh. DAVID CAMERON: … and we think some of those powers should come back. But again, because we set our ambitions in a way that is realistic and reasonable and sensible and achievable, we've focused very much on the powers in terms of social policy and said we want some of those powers back. Having spoken to people in Brussels and others, we think that is achievable. We've set us a goal to do it … ANDREW MARR: (over) Despite the great sort of hostility and indeed disdain of people like Merkel and Sarkozy for your position. I mean you're not going to go in there with a lot of friends, are you? DAVID CAMERON: Well I think that you know we had an opt-out from the Social Chapter, which Labour in my view foolishly gave up for almost nothing in return, so this is not an unrealistic expectation. And I have a good relationship with Chancellor Merkel and with President Sarkozy, but it's a relationship based on frankness. You know I haven't changed my view about this over the last four years. I've been meeting and talking with them many times over the last four years. Of course they don't agree with everything that I say, I wouldn't expect them to, but I think that's the only way to have a good, strong, international relationship - is to build up some friendship and some understanding, but to be very clear what your bottom line is. ANDREW MARR: Do you know, I still don't know after the last 25 minutes whether you are a radical or whether you are a sort of central manager. DAVID CAMERON: Well I think, look, the best way I can explain it is I have moved the Conservative Party into the mainstream of debate. We spend much more time on issues like health and education rather than being obsessed with a small number of fringe issues. But do I have ambitions to radically change our country and take it in a different direction? Yes, I do. I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't want to see … I think we're a great country still, but we've got to take some difficult decisions to be even greater. And … ANDREW MARR: Hard times ahead. DAVID CAMERON: Well only because if we don't do those, there will be really difficult times ahead. ANDREW MARR: David Cameron, for now thank you very much indeed. INTERVIEW ENDS
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