On Sunday 29 November Andrew Marr interviewed International Development Secretary Douglas Alexander. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used. ANDREW MARR: Well after months of deliberation, President Obama is finally going to announce his new strategy on Afghanistan on Tuesday evening. It's going to involve, apparently, a surge in US forces in the country, and more British troops will probably be sent as well. But in return, America and her allies will demand greater cooperation from President Karzai. At the Commonwealth Summit yesterday, Gordon Brown warned he'd be expected to meet new milestones and benchmarks for training up Afghan Security Forces and tackling corruption. Well Obama is also likely to announce new moves on improving the lives of Afghan people, so the civilian aid effort's going to become even more important. And I'm joined now by the man in charge of that for us - the International Development Secretary, Douglas Alexander. Thank you for coming in, Mr Alexander. We spend quite a lot of money in Afghanistan as a country already and a lot of people watching will say that is wasted money. It's going to a corrupt government and it's helping distort an already distorted economy. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well, first of all, why are we there? We're there to protect Britain's national security. We've got 9,000 troops on the ground in Afghanistan and we feel an obligation to back those troops because the essence of counterinsurgency involves not just weakening the Taliban but strengthening the Afghan state. That's why it is vital … ANDREW MARR: (over) Which is your bit, as it were? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: That's right. That's why it's vital, as we've been setting out in recent days, that we match this military surge with a political surge, and that explains the thinking behind the conference that's planned for London in January. ANDREW MARR: There seems to be a lot of confusion at the moment about exactly what's going on, whether this is a new phase in the war in Afghanistan - and you know we've had senior military people on this programme talking about another 4 years, 5 years of fighting … DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Sure. ANDREW MARR: … or whether this is the beginning of the end. I mean the News of the World here has got a story, presumably from the Prime Minister, saying 'Our boys home for next Christmas'. There we go - 'Our boys home for next Christmas'. Now that's not a month's time, but a year's time. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well I'm responsible for the civilian effort, but I'm not responsible for every headline that we see in the papers. Let me tell you this. The speed at which British troops can come home is dictated by the speed at which the Afghan forces can step up. As they step up, British troops can step back. That's why the Prime Minister in the Commonwealth heads of government meeting set out a timetable by which we want to train up the Afghan Army. The Taliban are trying to fight … ANDREW MARR: (over) Sorry, can I just stop you there? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Sure. ANDREW MARR: In your view, when will we start to see British troops coming home? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: I think the right attitude is not to have an end date but an end state in mind. We want Afghan forces to be able to protect their own country, which is why we've set out a timetable for them being trained up. Because unless they are able to protect their own country, the country will be vulnerable to being the base for al-Qaeda to attack the United Kingdom. ANDREW MARR: (over) So given the condition of the country and of the government, which has you know really failed to demonstrate itself in a proper election, we're talking about a long time. We're not talking about 13 months and the troops coming home, are we? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well we can see immediate progress. We want to see the number of Afghan forces lifted from about 90,000 to 134,000 within the next year. That would be a significant step on the road to Afghanistan being able to provide its own security for its own people. ANDREW MARR: And would that mean troops starting to come home if you got to that level of new security? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well I'm not setting out a timetable … ANDREW MARR: (over) Sure. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: … for British withdrawal today, partly because the Taliban watch television programmes. And one of the phrases that you hear when you're in Afghanistan is what the Taliban say, which is "Our enemies have watches, but we have time." It is critical in a counterinsurgency to convince the enemy that actually there are going to be forces there to repel them for some time to come. Not simply international forces, but also Afghan forces, which is why we'll be training up the Afghan Army and the Afghan police. ANDREW MARR: So that headline - not true, not helpful? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well I can't set a timetable today for British withdrawal. I can give you a timetable for the Afghan forces stepping up. And as they step up, our forces can step back. ANDREW MARR: And do you think really that Mr Karzai is somebody with whom we can properly do business over the long-term? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well we believe the only basis on which you can deal with an Afghan President is the basis of the Afghan Constitution. Under that Afghan Constitution, despite all of the very real difficulties with the election, he was declared the winner of the contest. And on that basis we require to work with the Afghan President because, as I say, the challenge is dual - we've got to both tackle the Taliban and strengthen the state. Strengthening the state means being able to provide police, being able to provide army, but also being able to provide basic services. So we have to work with the Afghan government in that endeavour. ANDREW MARR: So the overall message from this coming week is going to be this is a war in which we are going to carry on and sustain and go further and win; not this is a difficult situation from which we are now slowly trying to pull back? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: We're going to continue to be part of a 43 country coalition that recognises there both needs to be a military surge and a political surge if we're going to succeed in the counterinsurgency operation presently underway. ANDREW MARR: Let me ask you about Copenhagen because one of the things that Caroline Lucas and many other people were raising is the need for a very large amount of money - and the Prime Minister's talked about this - to go to the third world and to poorer countries to help them cope with both the effects of climate change and also greening their own economies. Given the state of our economy, which is on its back pretty much, is it realistic to expect people to put more money out of their pockets? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well there's two issues. Firstly on Caroline's comments, I think there are two big risks for Copenhagen. One is denial and the other is defeatism. Actually I think we've seen real progress this week, although we need to see a lot more progress in the days between now and the conference starting at the weekend. In terms of the affordability of dealing with climate change, Nicholas Stern's own work - the most definitive work on the economics of climate change- begs the question can we afford not to take this action? We need both to take action now, to deal with the consequences of climate change; but let's be clear that provides huge opportunities for new jobs and new prosperity here in the United Kingdom. We've got the most ambitious plans in the world for offshore wind. We could become a world centre of excellence in renewables and in other technologies. Because, frankly, we need to find new sources of jobs for the future. We've got about 800,000 green collar jobs in the UK at the moment, and few of us believe, despite the progress of financial … ANDREW MARR: (over) I'm not sure about that word 'green collar'. That's a strange, new one. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well it's part of an ongoing story both about how we provide not just renewable jobs but actually green technology jobs right across the country in the future. ANDREW MARR: Let's turn to British politics towards the end. One of the papers had a sort of … I know it's called an organogram or a picture of the Labour Party's election winning team with you in the middle of it. I have to say it's as if somebody had upended a kind of tin of spaghetti on the floor and stamped on it. I was completely bemused. Is your party really in a fit state for the next General Election? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well there's a bit of an emerging theme, which is my non-responsibility for the newspapers. (Marr laughs) I was in Scotland yesterday, and given that they editionalise the Times in Scotland, I'm none the wiser as to what that organogram showed. ANDREW MARR: There it is. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: What I can tell you is the Labour Party is … ANDREW MARR: (over) It looks like, it looks like a very bad map of London Underground. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: (over) It's look a bit … It looks a bit like a tube map. ANDREW MARR: Yes, yeah. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Listen, we're in a position where we believe that we have the ideas, we have the policies, we have the leadership to take on the Conservatives, but there's a big choice in the months ahead. I think the choice will become clearer at the Pre-Budget Report in the days ahead, and then our responsibility is to communicate to people that the Conservatives represent the wrong kind of change for Britain and actually we have the answers not just to battle the recession but to provide those new jobs. ANDREW MARR: The Conservatives have nonetheless gone a lot further than the Labour Party in laying out actually the hard choices and the cuts that may have to be … are going to have to be made over the next years. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: I don't really believe that. I think what they've done is shown the gap between their branding and their beliefs. What they do … ANDREW MARR: (over) Well what about … That's them … DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Yeah. ANDREW MARR: … but shouldn't your party, shouldn't - certainly by the Pre-Budget Report - be telling us, the voters, where you are going to have to make big savings and cuts? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well I think there will be further statements made by the Chancellor in the days ahead at the Pre-Budget Report and it's for him to set out those numbers. But I do think there's a pretty clear choice between a party that says its priority is a tax cut for the 3,000 richest estates, the Conservative Party; and a Labour Party that is determined to take the necessary action to reduce the deficit, but also critically to protect the public services on which so many people in Britain depend. ANDREW MARR: Isn't the big choice for the Labour Party whether you stick with your current Leader, given how extraordinarily unpopular he seems to be? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well, listen, the biggest call of this parliament was whether to take action decisively in the face of the global financial crisis. We've seen in Dubai in recent days, the scale of the crisis that the world financial community's made. Gordon Brown made the right choices and, frankly, the Conservative Party made the wrong choices. They were wrong in the recession. I believe they're wrong in the recovery. The challenge for us in the months ahead is to make that choice very clear to the electorate. ANDREW MARR: So why is it not going better for you in the polls? Is it because people are deluded, maybe by the media and it's the media's fault, or is it because there is something in Gordon Brown's personality they just don't like? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: I think we've got a responsibility after 12 years in power to make clear to people that it's not simply a referendum on how much do you like the Labour Party. Change without consequence is not going to be on the ballot paper whenever this election is called. The true responsibility of the Labour Party is to acknowledge certainly that we've had successes and some disappointments over 12 years, but ultimately there's a big choice facing the country and we believe we've got better answers and better policies. ANDREW MARR: It's a big choice that some recent polls suggest the country might fudge. Ken Clarke has said nothing could be worse than a hung parliament. Others have piled in on that. Nick Clegg was talking last week. What's your view? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well if you look at that organogram, I don't think any of us on it are planning for defeat or planning for a hung parliament. We're working for victory. ANDREW MARR: But if there was a hung parliament, do you think that you could get into a serious conversation with minority parties on things like … I mean electoral reform is the big one. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Sure. ANDREW MARR: There was some suggestion that electoral reform might be put in front of the British people even by the time of the next election. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: (over) Well, listen, I have been persuaded of the case for alternative votes, as it's called - the reason being that I think politics as usual has been pretty brutally dismissed by the whole expenses crisis and all the problems that we've had at Westminster, and I do think we need to recognise that's a symptom of a bigger problem. We need politics to turn outwards, actually to empower the population more, and that's why we have given this commitment to a referendum early in the next parliament. ANDREW MARR: We started by talking about Afghanistan. This conference in London in January, assuming it takes place as we expect - President Karzai's coming, probably Hillary Clinton will be there as well - how much of the sort of make or break moment in terms of the diplomacy and the strategy in Afghanistan will that be? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: I think it will be a key stepping stone in an ongoing process. Of course we expect a troop uplift to be announced in the days ahead by Nato partners and by the United States. We need to match that military surge with a political surge. That's going to be a key moment, the Afghan conference here in London on 28th January in the political surge, which is vital both to support our troops and to prevail in the counterinsurgency. ANDREW MARR: And what do we need Hamid Karzai to say to the world at that moment? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: We need him to deliver on even the promises that he made just a few days ago in his inaugural address. What matters are not the words of Hamid Karzai, but the actions of Hamid Karzai. ANDREW MARR: Douglas Alexander, thank you very much indeed. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Thank you. INTERVIEW ENDS
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