Johnson can 'do the right thing'

On Sunday 29 November Andrew Marr interviewed Janis Sharp and Director of Liberty Shami Chakrabati.

Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

ANDREW MARR:

Now you may remember the long-running story of the British man who successfully hacked his way into the Pentagon computer system, just to see what was there. Gary McKinnon, it turns out, has brilliant computer skills, but he suffers from a severe form of autism. The American government wants to prosecute him; and if he's convicted, he could face a jail term of up to 10 years. He's been fighting extradition and his doctors have warned that his mental health is so fragile, he's likely to kill himself if the prosecution goes ahead. Now the British government has told the Americans they can extradite him and he could be packed off to the United States before Christmas. Gary's mother, Janis, is here, and so is Shami Chakrabati from Liberty. Thank you both. The story restarts again this week when you get a letter from Alan Johnson, which basically says I'm not going to stand in the way of this extradition.

JANIS SHARP:

Yes, that's right. What was most upsetting really is the next stage is his solicitors will put in for a judicial review of his decision, and you normally are allowed 3 months for this, but Alan Johnson has specifically insisted that they expedite it and has given them only 7 days in order to put this in. And I don't really understand why he would do that. He said he's under lot of pressure. Pressure from whom? If it's the Americans, you wonder well who exactly is the government's loyalty to - its own people or to another power? And I find that quite worrying because if Gary had had the chance for this to go on into next year, you possibly are going to have a change of government where he has more chance of staying here.

ANDREW MARR:

Because the Conservatives have expressed some support. If he didn't have Asperger's Syndrome and the problems he's got, do you accept that he probably should be extradited?

JANIS SHARP:

Absolutely not. We don't have equal rights to the Americans. They have probable cause. They have evidence presented which they can contest in an American court. Here we have only suspicion. Now why can't our government turn around and say we also insist on probable cause because we deserve to have equal rights to everyone in the world?

ANDREW MARR:

A lot has been said about Gary's state of mind, and indeed the fact that he could even kill himself if he is forcibly extradited or if he's taken and sent to America. Do you … As his mother, tell us about what his current state of mind is.

JANIS SHARP:

Well it's horrendous. He's had a breakdown. He's had several. He doesn't talk for days. He often doesn't want to eat. He can't look into his own eyes in the mirror when he's shaving, and the psychiatrist said he's detaching totally from himself. He feels as though he's walking through a world that never ends. How can anyone be put in a heightened state of terror and fear for almost 8 years? We wouldn't do this to an animal. No-one would, no civilised country would, but we think it's fine to do it to a human being. And we had fighting about 28 Days - everyone argued before a charge could be brought and how important it was - but yet we can allow America to wait 3 years before requesting the extradition. Despite indicting him and putting out an arrest warrant in 2002, they waited until we put out this … started using this treaty.

ANDREW MARR:

So you think it's basically … it's cruel and inhumane treatment already?

JANIS SHARP:

I can't see how anyone could think otherwise. It's incredibly cruel.

ANDREW MARR:

Shami, does Alan Johnson however, given the state of the law and given his legal role in this as Home Secretary, does he have any choice in this?

SHAMI CHAKRABATI:

Well I mean, firstly, it's a bit of a cheek, frankly, for a government to tie its own hands, as the government did with this very, very rotten extradition arrangement, and then to complain that its hands are tied. But I think that Alan Johnson does have room to do the right thing. We've heard from Janis very eloquently about her son's state of mind and his situation. It would be perfectly easy, in my view, for Alan Johnson to say you know this is a vulnerable man, this is a special case. His human rights will be seriously violated if he's sent off.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) But this has gone all the way through to the High Court. I mean it's gone through the legal proceedings in this country, hasn't it …

SHAMI CHAKRABATI:

But …

ANDREW MARR:

… and Alan Johnson's no lawyer?

SHAMI CHAKRABATI:

But Gary's, but Gary's situation has deteriorated and that's an important point. Here's the beef about extradition. We all accept that it is right sometimes for people to be taken from one country to another because they're wanted for a criminal offence, but if you have rules with no discretion, you have a law with no compassion, and that is what was passed after 9/11 in the name of fighting terrorism. I was watching before, the conversation with your photographer Jeff and how he's now being stopped under Section 44 of the Terrorism Act when we all know that he's not a terrorist. Here we've got a rotten extradition law that was passed in the name of fighting terrorism, and look what happens.

ANDREW MARR:

And yet I come back to the fact that you know an offence, clearly an offence …

SHAMI CHAKRABATI:

(over) Yeah.

ANDREW MARR:

… was committed. And clearly …

SHAMI CHAKRABATI:

And he admits it, and he admits it.

ANDREW MARR:

Yes, absolutely. And given that it's the Pentagon computers and so on …

SHAMI CHAKRABATI:

Yuh.

ANDREW MARR:

… you can see why the Americans take it very seriously.

SHAMI CHAKRABATI:

Absolutely!

ANDREW MARR:

There is this agreement whether you like it or not. What I'm wondering really is how far our Home Secretary at this stage should go to stop it?

SHAMI CHAKRABATI:

Well he should … I think that Gary can be dealt with here and the Home Secretary can say we've got to have compassion. These are human beings, not robots that we're shunting around the world. And we also do need urgently to amend our extradition law, so the judges …

JANIS SHARP:

Absolutely.

SHAMI CHAKRABATI:

… can say in the interests of justice, this particular case where all the criminality took place here, not over there, can be dealt with here. Because it's Gary today, but it'll be someone else tomorrow. People sit at their computers. They're probably sitting there now, all over this country, doing things that may or may not be criminal offences all over the world. And we've got these sorts of extradition arrangements not just with Europe and the US …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Would it be acceptable to try him here?

SHAMI CHAKRABATI:

Absolutely.

JANIS SHARP:

As Jack Straw said in the 1990s, it wasn't acceptable in a democracy to use the Queen's Prerogative to put things through, but they did use the Queen's Prerogative to actually put through this treaty. And I actually don't think the Queen knows that actually her citizens have been sold out.

ANDREW MARR:

Right.

JANIS SHARP:

I'm actually going to write to the Queen, as are many other people, to say does she realise that her minister has actually signed something that has sold out the rights of its own people. Extradition was meant to bring you back from a country you had absconded from …

SHAMI CHAKRABATI:

Sure.

JANIS SHARP:

… not from when the crime was committed in this year.

SHAMI CHAKRABATI:

But, Janis, it wouldn't even be in breach of this treaty. Even though I've got a problem with the treaty, the treaty is silent as to what to do when criminal offences take place here …

ANDREW MARR:

Okay.

SHAMI CHAKRABATI:

… and someone could be properly dealt with under the computer misuse legislation here in the UK.

ANDREW MARR:

Janis, how close are we to the end game now? Could this happen before Christmas and what do you fear for Gary if it does?

JANIS SHARP:

Well I think the government would like it to be closer because I think they are bending to pressure by Americans and I don't know why. To have actually insisted that they expedite it is so wrong. My fear is for Gary, I would never see him again. And people say the 60 year sentence is an exaggeration, but it isn't.

ANDREW MARR:

60 year sentence?

JANIS SHARP:

Yes, 10 years per count. And one state wanted to see him fry and …

ANDREW MARR:

And this suicide thing, is that a lawyer's argument or do you think it's true that he might?

JANIS SHARP:

No, it is true. He's under the top psychiatrist in the land. I mean you've got Simon Baron-Cohen, you've got Professor Jeremy Turk who are experts in not only Asperger's, but also deep depression. Of course it's true. Many people would rather be dead than be in a prison in America. I mean they use stun guns, there's lots of male rapists. It's a very scary place. It's not equivalent. People say the justice system is like ours. It's not. They execute more children, more juveniles in America than all other countries put together. Only Iran and America still execute juveniles. It's an entirely different system.

ANDREW MARR:

Right, well it's a very … It's clearly …

SHAMI CHAKRABATI:

(over) And even if that wasn't true, even if that wasn't true, sometimes compassion and justice means dealing with somebody here at home.

ANDREW MARR:

Well okay. Thank you both very much indeed for coming in and talking to us about that.

INTERVIEW ENDS

E-mail this to a friend

Printable version