On Sunday 8 November Andrew Marr interviewed Shadow Defence Secretary William Hague MP. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used. ANDREW MARR: Well I'm going to be talking to William Hague about all of that in a moment. But first on this Remembrance Sunday I wanted to talk about the military situation in Afghanistan because it may be in one sense in your hands if you win the election. When I heard Sir Jock Stirrup talking about another four to five years of this kind of fighting my immediate thought would be this is not sustainable. If it happens on your watch can you envisage four or five years of this, these kind of level of casualties in Afghanistan? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well I think we're going to have to do much better in all sorts of ways to contemplate anything like that, much better at communicating what is going on there, why we are doing it. After all this level of publish dissatisfaction that we see in opinion surveys reported this morning is not a very good basis on which to fight a war. So we'd have to do much better at that. And much better in the sense of actual military success and showing that progress is being made. I don't think the public, certainly the public would not, public support would not be maintained for a campaign of that length in which we could not show really clear military and political progress in Afghanistan. So that is what we have to make sure we do now. ANDREW MARR: And yet it's very hard to see what that kind of clear progress would be because at this stage forces are pulling back from some of the front line areas. And in terms of political progress where's it going to come from? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well it's a very difficult situation. I would be kidding you if I said we weren't very worried about it in the Conservative Party. The prospect of coming in and six months time we will be responsible for this. We understand this - David Cameron, Liam Fox and I. But I also recall going to Baghdad three years ago at the height of the insurgency and being very doubtful that there was ever any prospect of things improving there when you saw the situation on the ground. A great deal was learnt then and has been learnt since about counter insurgency warfare, about winning over the local population, protecting the population rather than counting the casualties that you inflict on the other side. And that is what I think the NATO forces now want to bring. I think that will be at the heart of President Obama's strategy. It's there, it's all there in General McChrystal's ... ANDREW MARR: If it happens? WILLIAM HAGUE: If it happens. It's more difficult to do in Afghanistan. Even more difficult than in Iraq. But so I think the situation in Afghanistan is very difficult but it is still possible to succeed and it is far preferable to succeed than to pull out now with the collapse of the government in Afghanistan, with all that means for the stability of Pakistan, with Al Qaeda being able to regroup. It is far preferable to succeed and that means we have to get behind the people there, make sure they are properly equipped, that our brave men and women there have the support they need. ANDREW MARR: When one hears senior military people and politicians saying we have to make the argument better that very often means that in effect the argument has already been lost and that we have reached a tipping point. What would you do given these terrible polling figures in terms of support for the war to turn things round? WILLIAM HAGUE: I think we've got to communicate more evenly and regularly. The communication of government at the moment with the public about Afghanistan tends to be very news driven. You know when there are some serious casualties and we've seen some tragic casualties this week the Prime Minister gives a speech, Afghanistan is in the news for a few days then it goes a bit quieter for a couple of months, then there are some more casualties, then the Prime Minister gives another speech and visits a helicopter factory. We want the government and in government what we would do is give regular reports to parliament and the nation about the resources involved, about the objectives involved, about why we are there. ANDREW MARR: Is that going to be, sorry, is that going to be enough though? Because I mean support is ebbing quite fast and, and for reasons that are very, very easy to understand. It sounds to me like you agree with the policy in almost every way but that you just try and explain it better. WILLIAM HAGUE: Well not only that. As I said at the beginning we have to do better, not only in communicating but in actual concrete results as well. So people have to see there is a strategy they can believe will succeed. And that's in military terms but also in the, in, in what happens when our troops gain the ground in Afghanistan, that the economic and development assistance that then helps to win over the local population has never been well enough coordinated and that is where there needs to be a substantive change. I hope that in the revised strategy that President Obama looks like he will present in the next couple of weeks, there will be a return to the idea of a very strong coordinating figure. So that if the Afghan government is partly corrupt and ineffective we know there's really strong civilian coordination of the entire economic effort in Afghanistan going in behind the troops. ANDREW MARR: Would you like to see some kind of pro-consul figure almost going in? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well I don't think it would be very politic to call it a pro-consul. ANDREW MARR: No. WILLIAM HAGUE: But that sort of figure. ANDREW MARR: It's all right, no one's watching. WILLIAM HAGUE: I'm sure somebody might be listening. But so not a pro-consul but a very powerful central coordinating figure from the international community so that people would be able to see there was an effective military strategy and an effective political economic strategy as well. And I think that's what would help those people responding to opinion polls, not, not just us giving plenty of speeches. You're quite right about that. To believe there was a prospect of success and it's very important they do believe that. ANDREW MARR: Yeah. And when it - before we leave Afghanistan you're going to be inheriting as a government a very, very difficult economic situation and a very difficult public spending situation. Will the Conservatives actually spend what it takes if necessary to win this war over four or five years which could mean a lot more money, a lot more troops and all of that? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well you can't do a thing like this in a half hearted way. So yes we have to, we will have a strategic defence review. And there should have been a strategic defence review at some point in the last five or ten years given all the difficult choices in defence. We have to line up the defence spending with our foreign policy priorities. And that's why it was so wrong to cut the helicopter budget can you believe in two thousand and four by one point four billion pounds while spending more on other defence procurement projects. That was a great mistake by the current government. So we hope by having strategic defence review and the Foreign Office and Defence Ministry working properly together that we can get those decisions right. ANDREW MARR: Before you as a party took the decision to ditch the referendum on Europe did you seriously think about going ahead and sticking with what you'd said? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well we have stuck with what we said. We've always fought for a referendum before the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty. ANDREW MARR: You said on any treaty that came out. I mean to most people it looked like a cast iron guarantee. WILLIAM HAGUE: Well ... a few weeks ago you were giving David Cameron a hard time on this programme because he wasn't going to say at that point what we would do if the Treaty was ratified. So you can't argue simultaneously that we wouldn't say what we ... ANDREW MARR: Oh yes I can. WILLIAM HAGUE: And that we did say what we were going to do. Clearly what we had said was about a pre-ratification referendum and I think it's important to explain why it's not then a simple matter just to hold a referendum anyway, because until last Tuesday holding a referendum in Britain, if people had voted no, would have stopped the Lisbon Treaty going ahead across the whole of Europe. ANDREW MARR: Yeah. WILLIAM HAGUE: After last Tuesday holding a referendum doesn't stop it going ahead even in Britain let alone across the whole of Europe so .. ANDREW MARR: So what do you, what do you say to a long standing and sincere Euro-sceptic who is now in utter despair because actually all the things that you're promising instead like a sovereignty treaty and all the rest of it are going to be very fine and well made locks on a stable door minus a horse. WILLIAM HAGUE: Well minus this particular horse, that is certainly true. And no one is more disappointed than I am. I am one of those long standing and sincere Euro-sceptics. I was desperate to hold that referendum and had already told the Foreign Office if we were elected in those circumstances to prepare for such a referendum. But I say first of all we will put that lock in for the future. Whenever any government transfers power to Brussels we will make it a requirement by law that a referendum is held. ANDREW MARR: But after this process everybody in Europe is saying there is not going to be another constitutional treaty for the foreseeable future, for years and years and years ahead. Meanwhile we're locked into this. WILLIAM HAGUE: Yeah well we must provide for however many years ahead. We had better provide for that and make it part of the established constitutional practice of Britain. Second, there are things that we want to change about what has happened with the Lisbon Treaty. ANDREW MARR: Well let's go through those, yes. You've talked I think about three areas. One is social and welfare policy. Very, very difficult to change. You need the unanimous agreement of all the other countries. Could we really see a Conservative government with all the problems going in to fight to erode the right to a four weeks' holiday or paternity leave in this country? Doesn't seem likely. WILLIAM HAGUE: Well those aren't necessarily the sorts of things that we are talking about. We're more anxious about things like that the agency workers directive which particularly affects Britain. It affects part time workers who come through agencies in Britain, estimated by the CBI and others to hugely increase the costs of employing people in Britain but doesn't make so much difference to other European economies whose labour markets are different. And so there are things that we can ask for which are of particular importance to us but are not particularly damaging .. ANDREW MARR: Okay. WILLIAM HAGUE: .. to our European partners. ANDREW MARR: These are quite small. That's quite a small thing .. WILLIAM HAGUE: But an important thing. ANDREW MARR: And this, at this stage the rest of the EU is saying you know forget a shopping list. We're not, we're not interested. We're not going to talk to you about it and we don't need to. WILLIAM HAGUE: We recognise it's difficult and that's why we say these are things to look for over the life time of a parliament. There will be no instant bust up with Europe with a six month deadline or anything like that to achieve these objectives because you have to find your moment to achieve these objectives whenever it may be I whatever budget negotiation and whatever other treaty that may be coming forward. So we will possibly have to take our time in order to achieve those things. ANDREW MARR: Doesn't sound like much is really going to happen. WILLIAM HAGUE: Well no I am very determined that those things will happen. But I also say this to, we say this to ourselves and to those who may criticise is we expect to be elected. If we are elected next year, with the worst financial position of any government coming to power at any time since the second world war, with all of these problems that we've just been discussing - Afghanistan, Pakistan - that international relations must be on our minds twenty four hours a day. In that situation going into a great crisis with the European Union the moment we are elected is not the right thing for the national interests or for the interests of that new government. If we could have held the referendum on the Lisbon Treaty we would have loved to do so and we would have recommended a no vote. ANDREW MARR: So it's going to be business as usual? WILLIAM HAGUE: We will be working with our European partners on climate change, on the single market, on free trade and so on. That will be our responsibility and we will do that very well. ANDREW MARR: And when you say that you will give people the chance to vote next time there's a big issue why should they believe you? I mean I'm 50 WILLIAM HAGUE: Well .. ANDREW MARR: .. and I have never had the chance to vote on Europe specifically. WILLIAM HAGUE: They should believe us because we will try to entrench it in British constitutional practice. We will challenge the other parties now to say are you going to agree with us about changing the law so that a referendum is always required in future if the powers of the people of Britain are handed over to anyone, or handed over to the European Union. Cos if you're not going to agree with them on that why not? And if you are well then there will be a permanent change in how we do things and any future government of any party is going to have to respect it. ANDREW MARR: It's a gift to UKIP isn't it? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well no I don't, well first of all I don't think we can set our policies with the policies of fringe parties in mind. We cannot as a potential government just pander to fringe parties in our policies. We have to do what we think is the right thing. And people have to remember, whenever they contemplate voting for a fringe party that they ... ANDREW MARR: (INAUDIBLE) WILLIAM HAGUE: At the next general election it's a choice between Gordon Brown as Prime Minister or David Cameron. You can continue to have Labour or you can change with the Conservatives. There is no other government, alternative government that can be elected. And if you want a change you have to vote Conservative not for one of the minor or fringe parties. ANDREW MARR: But despite the kind of concern and some of the abuse from European foreign ministers over the last few days there is going to be no big bust up and in terms of European policy things will continue in a rather calm course under the Conservatives… WILLIAM HAGUE: No. There will be a steady promotion of our national interest. Where the current government has been a pushover in European budget - they've given away seven billion pounds of our rebate for nothing in return - that will not happen under .. ANDREW MARR: Okay. WILLIAM HAGUE: .. a Conservative government. We will be tough negotiators as the French ministers are. ANDREW MARR: Okay. Let's ... WILLIAM HAGUE: With our own national interest. ANDREW MARR: Let's come closer to home. Are you happy about somebody who is clearly closer to Alistair Campbell, I'm talking about Mr Sir Ian Kennedy, overseeing what looks like a rewriting of the Kelly proposals for MPs' expenses? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well I think it would be unwise to rewrite all those proposals. I don't, I don't know how close he is to Alistair Campbell and I don't think that determines his merits or otherwise to do the job. But .. ANDREW MARR: So you're satisfied with him ...? WILLIAM HAGUE: I think it - well we'll see. Let's, we'll all see if we're satisfied as time goes by won't we. But the, I think it would be wrong to rewrite what has now been produced because we need public confidence again in the MPs' expenses system. I think the public are, agrees with what Sir Christopher Kelly has said and we have to accept it, not quibble about it. And we don't really want somebody else to come in and quibble about it either, that's my advice. ANDREW MARR: ... I mean I think a lot of people including me are confused because the party leaders have by and large said swallow the Kelly medicine. Just gulp it down and get on. And yet Harriet Harman on this programme was suggesting there could be some changes around the edges and indeed Kennedy himself is making it clear that he wants to look again at quite a lot of these proposals. WILLIAM HAGUE: Yeah well my advice to him, although it is actually not in our hands any more .... it will be up to him. But my advice to him if he thought it would be, that would be unwise and unnecessary to look at it all again. People are now confused. If you're confused think how confused everybody is out in the country. ANDREW MARR: All right. WILLIAM HAGUE: They just want to know this system is cleaned up reliably for the future, that we're going to stick to the new rules, let's not have another great overhaul of them and change them all again. ANDREW MARR: One further confusing question to many people - you've been out and about with Lord Ashcroft. Do you know whether he pays tax in this country yet? WILLIAM HAGUE: I'm sure he fulfils the obligations that were imposed on him at the time he became .. ANDREW MARR: That's not quite the question. WILLIAM HAGUE: ... as far as .. ANDREW MARR: Have you asked him? WILLIAM HAGUE: I have asked him .. ANDREW MARR: And? WILLIAM HAGUE: .. because I've been asked whether I've asked him before. My conclusion having asked him is that he fulfilled the obligations that were imposed on him at the time that he became a peer. ANDREW MARR: So but does he pay taxes in the UK? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well that, well that, I imagine that was the obligation that was imposed on him. ANDREW MARR: So you think he does? WILLIAM HAGUE: So I think he's fulfilled what was asked of him. ANDREW MARR: I don't understand ... WILLIAM HAGUE: Well you can't expect me to know every detail of somebody's tax affairs. But I have asked him and he has .. ANDREW MARR: But you must have asked him ... yes or no, surely. WILLIAM HAGUE: I've asked him and he fulfils the obligations that were imposed on him which ... ANDREW MARR: So he could be your foreign, he could be a foreign policy advisor to you and there'd be no problem as far as you're concerned? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well I'm not in the business of appointing foreign policy advisors. We haven't been elected yet. ANDREW MARR: Well you may well soon be. For now William Hague thank you very much indeed. WILLIAM HAGUE: Thank you. INTERVIEW ENDS
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