On Sunday 8 November Andrew Marr interviewed Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used. ANDREW MARR: Well the current defence chief Sir Jock Stirrup joined me a little earlier in the studio before heading off to the Remembrance ceremony at the Cenotaph. And I began by asking him whether it was right that the focus this year should be on the fallen in Afghanistan. JOCK STIRRUP: It's true to say that perhaps fifteen years or so ago Remembrance Day was much more about history than about the present. Although we should remember that there's only been one year since the Second World War that a British servicemen didn't die on operation somewhere in the world. So it's always been a very current issue. But of course with the conflicts in which we've been engaged in recent years that's come into much sharper focus. And so it's right that we should remember particularly this year which has been a very difficult, very painful year for us - it's been a very difficult, very painful year for, week for the military - that we should remember all of those. But I think it's also important to bear in mind the sacrifices of all those who've gone before, not least in this year that's seen the passing of the World War One generation. ANDREW MARR: Let me put to you that, that latest opinion poll and the previous one showing really very low public support, about two thirds of people roughly speaking thinking that the war in Afghanistan cannot be won, more grim news as you just said very recently. And even the Prime Minister though saying that we're going to stick with it, something more sombre and darker in his tone as well. Is this a war we're losing? JOCK STIRRUP: Well I think winning and losing are unhelpful terms in the context of Afghanistan. I think it's right to have a sombre tone because it's costing us. Our people are paying a very high price for what we're doing. But I think that one of the reasons behind the sort of opinion poll figures that you've just mentioned is the fact that we have not done a sufficiently good job in answering what I think are the three basic questions we have to face. And the first of those is is this important enough. Is it important enough to us as a country, to our security to justify the price that our people are paying? The second question is is it doable. Even if it's important enough is it actually physically doable. And then the third question is okay, if it is doable are we doing it properly. Are we going to succeed? Are we doing the right things? I think we're making some progress in answering the first question. I think the Prime Minister tried to set out the answer to that again in his speech on Friday. But I think people remain to be convinced exactly as you say about whether or not this is doable. ANDREW MARR: Well can I, can I come directly onto that, that question then. Because one of the newspapers' ... experienced correspondent Patrick Coburn argues that actually the Taliban are not only winning in Afghanistan but Al Qaeda, the people that we're really concerned about have moved over the border to Pakistan anyway. And I put it to you that our soldiers are not fighting Al Qaeda. They're not coming across Al Qaeda because Al Qaeda have moved. JOCK STIRRUP: Well in a sense and indirectly I accept they are. First of all we're not talking about Afghanistan or Pakistan. We're talking about a large ungoverned space that straddles both countries. And you can't think of them separately. You have to address them in different ways cos they're different countries but you have to think of that ungoverned space as a totality. It's true that Al Qaeda are not operating in Afghanistan at the moment. It is also true that over the last couple of years in particular the Al Qaeda core has suffered significant damage. I'm not saying that they could not come back, that they're finished for good. But what I am saying is that if the pressure they've experienced over the last couple of years continues then there is a very good chance they will be. ANDREW MARR: So you accept they have been driven out of Afghanistan for the time being? JOCK STIRRUP: Well one of the reasons they've come under such pressure is because they have been forced into a relatively small area albeit inhospitable and largely inaccessible, a relatively small area within Pakistan and that has enabled people to focus assets and resources on them and to do them significant damage. If they were not squeezed into such a small area it would be much, much more difficult, if not impossible to achieve what we are achieving against Al Qaeda. And we must remember that is at the heart of all of this. So the argument that what we are doing in Afghanistan does not contribute to the fight against Al Qaeda I think is wrong. ANDREW MARR: So when somebody like Kim Howells former Defence Minister says actually if it's about protecting our streets we would be far better to pull back and protect our own borders and protect our own streets much more directly than to think that we could do it by proxy in Afghanistan. JOCK STIRRUP: Well I have a great deal of respect for Kim Howells but I don't think that he's right on this score. You can't defend just on the goal line. That won't work. You have to defend our nation and its people and its interests within its borders and outside of its borders. All of experience, all of our history tells us that. ANDREW MARR: When we talked a year ago you said that we would see victory really on the political side and the reform of Afghanistan, the reform of its democracy. Hasn't happened has it? JOCK STIRRUP: It hasn't happened. But I think that in the, in the turmoil of this election year in Afghanistan and in all the unfortunate events that we've seen throughout the course of that election we should remember certain things. We should remember that over the course of the last year there have been an increasing number of increasingly competent ministers within Kabul who have started to have an effect within the ministry of the interior for example, but others besides. The second point we have to remember is we're not going to see a strong central government in Afghanistan. That's not what it does. And when we talk about political solutions we're not talking about just a strong central government solution from Kabul. We're talking just as much if not more about local solutions. And if you look around the country, if you look in provinces like Helmand you see that real progress has been made. ANDREW MARR: When the prime minister said that he wasn't going to allow British soldiers to be put in harm's way to defend a corrupt administration a lot of people at home will simply say well that is exactly what's happening. It is a corrupt administration. It has survived as a corrupt administration, centred as you say on Kabul with a deeply compromised police and military of its own. A lot of people will wonder why our troops are defending this. JOCK STIRRUP: Well I don't think our troops are defending the Afghan administration. Our troops are defending our national interest. The, of course since our national interest relies upon a political solution in Afghanistan then the position of the Afghan government nationally and local is incredibly important. But throughout all of this we would remember that that's not why our troops are there, to support the Afghan government. It's, they're there to support our national interest. That's incredibly important. ANDREW MARR: We've, we've talked a bit about the strategy. Let's talk a little bit if we could about the tactics. The terrible incident with the Afghan police officer today, this week, seems to exemplify a big problem which is that the Afghan police and to a certain extent the Afghan Army aren't really a police force or an army. It's open to almost anybody who wants to come along and grab a gun to join. That is not in the medium term, never mind the short term, going to provide any kind of real security in this country. JOCK STIRRUP: Well the Afghan National Army is more advanced than the Afghan National Police. That's the first thing to say. The second this is as far as the police are concerned as we have said many times that they face real problems. But they are still making progress. Now I don't believe that it's open just anybody to pick up a gun and become a policeman. But it is true I think that the, the entry procedures, the vetting procedures and the over all governance procedures within the police are not nearly good enough yet. And so we need to continue to work on those. But I think if you talk to the people on the ground who are doing this job and who have had a terrible week - they have lost good friends, they've lost good comrades, families back here are bereaved as a result of this awful incident - nevertheless they do see it as a rogue policeman. They don't see it as representative of the larger set of people they're dealing with and they do see that they have a job which they can do and which they are doing. ANDREW MARR: The Sunday Times is reporting this morning that the army plans to leave or as they say abandon some of the forward positions, particularly Musa Qala, but other of those outlying positions. Is that true? JOCK STIRRUP: No. But what is true in the article and what we have stressed many times and what is in general Stan McChrystal's assessment is that since this is a counter insurgency you have to focus on the population. It's the people that matter not the geography so you have to follow the people. And in Helmand it is absolutely true that the bulk of the population is centred around the, the middle of the Province around what might call, one might call Greater Lashkar Gah. And that's where we have to devote the bulk of our efforts. ANDREW MARR: So we will be pulling out from some of those outlying places? JOCK STIRRUP: I don't know that we will be. I think that ISAF over all may well reconfigure and pull out of some of the more outlying places so that it can focus more on the population. ANDREW MARR: Including Musa Qala? JOCK STIRRUP: But I, but there are no plans to do that in Musa Qala. ANDREW MARR: Because there is a feeling, perhaps wrongly, that the Taliban are pushing in on all sides. The United Nations have had to pull troop, a lot of people out of Kabul and elsewhere and that actually if you like the line is shrinking a bit. JOCK STIRRUP: That's true but the, the, the Taliban themselves have suffered significant losses this year. That doesn't get reported very much but we must remember that. But as I said this is not a battle against the Taliban. It's a battle for the Afghan people. So what matters is that the degree of security you can give to the people and to how many of the people you can give that security. ANDREW MARR: In the end we're going to have to talk to the Taliban aren't we? JOCK STIRRUP: Well we want to talk to all of the people who are opposing us and fighting us at the moment. And that's why we have a force reintegration centre that's been set up under General McChrystal. It's why retired Lieutenant General Graham Lamb has gone out there to run that and it's why we have contributed staff officers to that. Reintegration of people back into the society of Afghanistan, back into its polity has to be a key strand in this campaign. ANDREW MARR: It's just that people say we're losing a lot of people. If they're pushing us back and we're going to have to talk to them eventually anyway it's not hard to see why people in this country wonder why it's going on. JOCK STIRRUP: Well talking to them is not the same as withdrawing. Talking to them is about actually getting a political solution inside Afghanistan that is enduring. It's not about surrendering. ANDREW MARR: You mentioned General McChrystal. There's another report today which suggests that he would like to see British forces put out of harm's way and put into rather less dangerous positions at least until the spring. JOCK STIRRUP: Well I talk to General McChrystal on a frequent basis. He's never said that to me. And I doubt very much that he actually did say it. ANDREW MARR: How important is it going to be to get a big surge of extra troops before too long? Because there's some frustration I think in London that it's taken so long to get a decision out of Washington? JOCK STIRRUP: I think they're, I think that's true. I, McChrystal has done his assessment. He owns it and he will tell you that. But he has not done it by himself in some monastic cell. He has had some of the world's best counter insurgency brains engaged in this. And he has come up with a plan for delivering the strategy which we've had for a long time now but delivering it in real terms on the ground. But it does require more force. And if that force is not forthcoming then we will have to think again. ANDREW MARR: So we're still waiting for a decision from the White House. But if it goes that way what are the prospects for extra British troops going out there to help in that, as it were, big surge? JOCK STIRRUP: Well we already have nine and a half thousand .. ANDREW MARR: Yes. JOCK STIRRUP: .. to deal with the tasks that we are currently undertaking. What might happen beyond that we have not yet addressed. ANDREW MARR: So if we don't, if the White House decides not to go for General McChrystal's plan then the whole thing is really up in the air again isn't it? JOCK STIRRUP: Well I think General McChrystal's plan is designed to deliver the current strategy. If a decision is made not to implement such a plan but to implement a different one then you've got to ask what strategy that plan will be implementing. ANDREW MARR: When it comes to the kit that British soldiers have got out there, famously Colonel Thorneloe complained about the lack of helicopters and it seems to be absolutely clear that a lot of the British losses are simply because of the long road trips that have to be made by British forces because we don't have the helicopters. Now you've said you never have enough helicopters and you're doing your best to provide more. When are British forces in Afghanistan going to get more helicopters? Will they ever have enough? JOCK STIRRUP: Well as I've always said there's no such thing as enough. When will they have more? The first of the Merlins will be going out this coming week. With regard to their casualties which we're sadly suffering in Afghanistan it's true that some of them occur on road moves that could be done in other ways. But the great majority of them today are be, are occurring on foot patrols. And as we all know a counter insurgency has to be conducted largely on foot. You have to interact with the population because it is about the population. ANDREW MARR: The head of the army has said that we could be involved in fighting for another three or four years and then maybe thirty or forty years of nation building. It's that kind of perspective perhaps that makes so many members of the public despair about this war. JOCK STIRRUP: Well I, I'm not in the business of forecasting timescales. What I will say is that we are there to hold the security ring so that political solutions can be delivered. But we, we are only holding the security ring until the Afghans are capable of doing it themselves. So the key is when will the Afghan National Army be able to take the lead on security across the country? General McChrystal estimates that that will not be before two thousand and thirteen. I think that's a little optimistic. I'd say about two thousand and fourteen. Of course it will be gradual process. It won't be one big step change .. ANDREW MARR: Another four, that's another four years of this going on. JOCK STIRRUP: It's another four or five years but it will be a gradual process. Over time the Afghans will be taking more and more responsibility. ANDREW MARR: But looking at public opinion and thinking that we might have another four or five years of this don't you think we've already arrived at a tipping point? JOCK STIRRUP: I don't know that we've arrived at a tipping point but I do think that it's incredibly important that we do better at describing to people the success that we are having to demonstrate that over the long term this is doable. I don't think we've been nearly good enough yet. What we see is the down side and it is a very, very painful down side - tragic losses, bereaved families back home that are having to cope with that loss. People who are injured and having to deal with a complete change in their life. But out there on the ground talk to the people who are doing it on the ground and they will tell you that they are making real progress. We have got to do much better at describing that progress. It's, it's painful and it's slow and it's halting but it is in the right direction. ANDREW MARR: Sir Jock before you attend today's very important service thank you very much indeed for coming in. JOCK STIRRUP: Thank you. INTERVIEW ENDS
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