Devolution-max, independence-min

On Sunday 18 October Andrew Marr interviewed First Minister of Scotland Alexander Salmond MSP.

Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

ANDREW MARR:

The First Minister in Scotland is on a roll. A minority they may be, but the Scottish Nationalists seem firmly in the saddle as the governing party. They've survived the embarrassment of the big Edinburgh based banks going bust, but what of Alex Salmond's core aim of Scottish independence? Can he exploit next year's Westminster election and get the Scots a vote on separation? Well Alex Salmond joins me from the SNP conference in Inverness. Good morning to you. Mr Salmond …

ALEX SALMOND:

Good morning, Andrew.

ANDREW MARR:

Good morning. Mr Salmond, still only a minority of Scots actually back independence. What do you think might make them change their minds over the next 12 months or so?

ALEX SALMOND:

Well I think two things, Andrew. One is the process, the debate. As you know, we publish the White Paper on the Referendum Bill on St. Andrew's Day, on November 30th, and I'm sure that'll reenergise the independence debate. We're been having a very successful national conversation round Scotland. 5,000 people have turned up at the meetings, so there's a real appetite to engage in the debate and arguments about independence. Secondly, I think the context of the UK General Election is going to present Scotland with some pretty stark choices because we now know that after the party conference season that Labour and Tory, Tory and Labour have in mind swingeing public expenditure cuts in Scotland and, therefore, I think overlying the constitutional debate is going to be a debate about the direction of the economy, the future of public services, the priorities that people have. You know, for example, should we spend in that context 100,000 million pounds building a new generation of Trident submarines in the River Clyde, or should we concentrate in this tight, difficult economic environment on things that really matter like the health service and the education system?

ANDREW MARR:

Do you think that a hung parliament is first of all likely at Westminster because everyone down in London has been assuming an overwhelming Conservative victory, it seems, and yet you're talking, you're arguing I think that this is not as likely as people say? And, secondly, that this is something that you could as it were exploit?

ALEX SALMOND:

Well, I think you're right. I mean I think probably it would be reasonable to discount an overall Labour majority. That seems unlikely given the shape of the opinion polls and the state of the Labour Party. But statistically in terms of swings, actually to get a majority, the Conservatives have to travel a very, very long way because so far they are behind in the last election but also the vagaries of the first past the post election system. So you know I think a hung parliament, a balanced parliament is a likely outcome. I mean obviously a Conservative majority is another possible outcome. But either way, a Scottish block, as we are describing it - you know 20 or more SNP MPs in that framework could have a decisive influence on events and tilt things in Scotland's direction. I would prefer a balanced parliament because the electoral arithmetic in a parliament gives you a very decisive influence. I mean I've got more experience, Andrew, than anyone else in these islands right now of minority government …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Because you run a minority, you run a minority.

ALEX SALMOND:

… so I know exactly what it's like. Well that's right, I'm on the other side. I run a minority government and I know the influence, particularly in budget debates, that other parties can have. I meant the Green Party in our first budget had an inordinate influence with two MSP's in the Scots Parliament, and that's the reality of a balanced parliament situation. So in answer to your question, I think people are very foolish if they're discounting that as a very live possibility and, yes, a Scottish block of MPs could exert a decisive influence in such a framework …

ANDREW MARR:

Thank you.

ALEX SALMOND:

… and win tangible, meaningful gains for Scotland.

ANDREW MARR:

Sure. When you present the country with your referendum proposals, are you going to give people a choice of two options - the status quo or independence - or is there a possibility of a third option, which is being called either 'independence lite' or 'devolution plus' whereby Scotland gets effective I suppose home rule but inside elements of the United Kingdom? Is that possibility going to be on offer?

ALEX SALMOND:

Well the terminology I'm not sure, but I've heard it described as 'devolution max'. Perhaps that would mean 'independence minimum' or something like that. But our position, Andrew, is this. We prefer a straight question and we've set out what that question might be. However, I've also indicated that if it was necessary to obtain the parliamentary majority in the Scots Parliament to have a third defined option on the ballot paper, which could be done with a couple of questions or by preference voting, then I would be prepared to discuss that and probably prepared to concede it as long as independence for Scotland is on the ballot paper, which is our sine qua non. That's the thing we must have. People must have the opportunity to exercise a right of self-determination. But I'm not frightened of another option on the ballot paper as long as that option is defined and meaningful, as long as it's something that people can understand and not some you know vague proposition.

ANDREW MARR:

Because people have been speculating as to whether the SNP itself is moving to a slight independence lite position. I mean you would probably have the pound, the Queen, you wouldn't have border controls. Now you're talking about sharing military bases or allowing English troops to be trained in Scotland. It's a long cry from the you know old idea of absolute independence, isn't it?

ALEX SALMOND:

Well can I just take these things in turn? I mean there are many independent countries that have the Queen as head of state - Australia, Canada, New Zealand just to take three. There are many more, incidentally. That doesn't make them non-independent. Nobody has border controls within the context of the European Union, Andrew. There's 600 million people don't have border controls. And the sharing of military facilities, I mean that's common across independent countries in Europe as well. I mean none of this is anything that reduces people's independence. Independence is the determination of action and having the choice, and all of these things and more. But you know one thing we have been developing is the concept of a social union, and that is to reinforce, as I was saying yesterday in my leader speech, to reinforce the concept of the bonds of friendship and family which are embraced across these islands while at the same time having that essential prerequisite of freedom of action to defend Scottish interests where Scottish interests require to be defended. I mean in the current context, we have the first without the second. I don't see any reason why in a partnership of equals, we can't have both.

ANDREW MARR:

Well we'll wait and see. Alex Salmond, for now thank you very much indeed.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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