On Sunday 11 October Andrew Marr interviewed Home Secretary Alan Johnson MP. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used. Home Secretary Alan Johnson says that Prime Minister Gordon Brown is 'determined' to lead Labour in to the next election. ANDREW MARR: Now then, on Wednesday the Prime Minister will make a statement to MPs about Afghanistan and he is widely expected to announce that hundreds more British soldiers will be sent there. In Washington, President Obama's been agonising over a possible change in strategy involving a surge of troop numbers. And as we speak, the US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, is meeting the Foreign Secretary David Miliband in London to discuss the way ahead. Well last week, Alan Johnson was in Afghanistan and Pakistan - the first such visit by a Home Secretary. After a summer of heavy losses, the government's been trying to explain the mission better, saying it will help keep British streets safe from terrorists. Mr Johnson is with me now. Welcome Home Secretary. ALAN JOHNSON: Good morning. ANDREW MARR: Now we don't expect home secretaries to be in Pakistan and Afghanistan, but this is presumably because of the direct link between what you're responsible for on the streets of Britain and what's happening there? ALAN JOHNSON: Yes. I mean Bob Ainsworth, the Defence Secretary … ANDREW MARR: (over) Was with you. ALAN JOHNSON: … goes there on a regular basis, every couple of months. But I wanted to go to say to the troops there first of all how much I appreciate and admire the work they're doing, but secondly to say that their courage and their sacrifice is actually helping to keep Britain's streets safer and protect Britain's borders as well as bringing … seeking to bring security to the region. So it's very important that we went together. There's also issues like counter narcotics … ANDREW MARR: Sure. ALAN JOHNSON: … policing and counter terrorism that are very much my, in my brief, that were part of the visit as well. ANDREW MARR: Can I jump in straight then? One of the things that people say about the war in Afghanistan is that although it's keeping the Taliban down, and therefore possibly al-Qaeda down as well, actually in the end they will always find - al-Qaeda and all terrorists - they will always find some stateless, little part of the world to base themselves in; and that if somehow the war in Afghanistan is won, then they'll be in Somalia or somewhere else before long. And that, therefore, this is not really … You know you can't win the War on Terror in Afghanistan. ALAN JOHNSON: Well I think that council of despair is not shared by anyone I spoke to out there. I mean the troops are amazingly articulate, well informed and … ANDREW MARR: (over) And do they think they can win? ALAN JOHNSON: … and the discussions that I had with all … Absolutely. I mean they understand completely the importance of this. Of course a UN backed mission led by Nato, 42 countries involved, and they understand and they appreciate that if we weren't there then the Taliban would be back, planning and plotting and training and financing the kind of terrorist attacks we've seen all around the world. I mean from the fertilised bomb … fertiliser bomb plot to 7/7, to 21/7 - remember which was thwarted by the security services - right through to the latest airline liquid bomb plot, they all had their genesis in that part of the world. And if you allow these people to just actually set up a safe haven, then you know we will all pay the price. ANDREW MARR: Not your most popular person at the moment, I suspect, but General Sir Richard Dannatt has said that you know he was pleading for more troops before and that, frankly, you need more troops there. If there is going to be you know a further surge and if things are going to be put on the front foot again, we needed more troops before; we still need more troops now. ALAN JOHNSON: Well remember when Gordon Brown became Prime Minister in the summer of 2007, there were 7,800 British troops in Afghanistan. Now there's over 9,000. We've got the McCrystal report, which wasn't presented to the Pentagon or the White House. It was presented to Nato, so it's a report on behalf of Nato and all the other countries involved. So there'll be a debate about that. And of course, as you mentioned, the Prime Minister will be making a statement to Parliament on Wednesday. But there's never been a reluctance to ensure that we have sufficient troops there. What we've got is … ANDREW MARR: Do you think we need more troops there? ALAN JOHNSON: What we've got is sufficient troops and equipment for what we're doing in Afghanistan. And the debate was about whether we can do more and whether there's more to be done. You see it's very important, it's very important. It's not … ANDREW MARR: (over) So this will be coordinated with The States presumably? Everybody will move together? ALAN JOHNSON: Yes, of course, because it's an international mission. But you know Bob Ainsworth spoke to the guy, Kim Hughes, who was dealing with these improvised explosive devices, which is the main threat we face, and he was saying we need more IED people out here - more people like him detecting these improvised explosive devices. And there will be more, there will be more. I mean that's not subject to the … ANDREW MARR: (over) I mean the Australians have had trucks that don't evaporate, that don't fall to pieces when they're hit by these … ALAN JOHNSON: So have we. ANDREW MARR: Yeah, but far fewer of them. We haven't had the stuff that the Australians … Have any Australians been killed in that way? ALAN JOHNSON: Well there's always a situation where you have to change over from one bit of kit to another bit of kit. You never go immediately from one to the other, so there's always a transformation there. And you know the forces themselves decide which bits of kit to use when there's a variety of them available. ANDREW MARR: You also went to Pakistan … ALAN JOHNSON: Yeah. ANDREW MARR: … and we've had this astonishing attack actually at the headquarters of the Pakistan Military, the place you'd have thought was the safest of all. Is it not the case that actually Pakistan longer term is a bigger worry than Afghanistan? ALAN JOHNSON: Well the reason why we went to both places - and we actually went to that army headquarters that's currently under siege to talk to General Kayani - was because of the fact that this issue is of course a threat to Pakistan as well. Now what's happened in Pakistan is over the last year, they've lost something like 1,600 civilians and nearly a thousand soldiers. It's no good us going there lecturing them about terrorism and the threats of terrorism. They understand. This is a Muslim republic, Islamic republic facing these kind of threats. And of course very recently they've gone on the military offensive in Swat Valley and Malakand and there's now all the debate when we were over there, both from the government and the opposition, was that they need to go into Southern Waziristan where there is a problem as well. So Pakistan is very much on the front foot dealing with us, and our cooperation on counter terrorism and on policing is very close and very good. ANDREW MARR: And yet despite everything you say, the public is against this war, the polls tell us, and actually the numbers haven't moved much. And I wonder if it's partly because people think there is no way out. They think we're going to be there forever and a day, don't understand how holding down the Taliban is actually going to be replaced by an effective Afghan police and military, and just think there's no end. ALAN JOHNSON: Well we have to explain this, of course we do. I don't know whether the majority of the public … The polls are kind of varied. But one thing is sure: British people don't like to see that level of casualties - 67 of our people from the 19th Light Brigade … And we spoke to Brigadier General Tim Radford who was exhausted after a six month tour of duty there. So you can understand that, but you know the principles behind this are very clear and we have to ensure the further we get away from terrorist plots like 7/7 … For America, 9/11 now was eight years ago and they have the same issue of ensuring that people do not enter into a council of despair, that they do understand that you can't resolve these things very quickly but you can resolve them over time. And it's a battle that has to be won for the security of all of our nations, but in particular for the security of the UK. ANDREW MARR: Party conference season continues, of course - the SNP have got their conference. But for the bigger parties, it's over. What, if anything, changed? ALAN JOHNSON: Well we'll know about that over the next few weeks. I mean … ANDREW MARR: How do you mean? In terms of … ALAN JOHNSON: … I'm hardly a neutral at looking at the three conferences. ANDREW MARR: No, but … ALAN JOHNSON: The Lib-Dems went badly wrong, ours was fine and very united … (laughs) ANDREW MARR: (over) He said hurriedly. ALAN JOHNSON: And the Tories - I thought Cameron's speech was very strange. I mean the issue about Cameron - and I think … you know I was hearing your discussion on the newspapers - there's going to be much more scrutiny, I hope now. It's not going to be about personality. It's going to be about judgement. I mean Cameron himself in his speech said it has to be about judgement. And in their judgement over the economy - the biggest call of any country, the biggest political and economic crisis we are likely to face in our time - they got the call wrong. Their judgement was absolutely wrong - wrong on the recession, wrong on the recovery. ANDREW MARR: Well except that I mean again most people, judging by almost all the polls that I've ever seen, think that the government currently is spending too much, the deficit is a terrible worry, it has to be paid down pretty quickly and we have to get things on an even keel - apart from anything else because the pound will go south if we don't. ALAN JOHNSON: Well of course we have to do that, and we will do that, but there is a vast difference with saying that now is the time to cut public spending. I mean it links into this rather 80s retro idea he has about big government. You know when you're in this kind of financial crisis around the world, governments are the only, the state is the only vehicle that can step in that has pockets deep enough and it's a case of either public spending or no spending at all. That leads to a much deeper recession and that leads into depression. ANDREW MARR: (over) Do you, do you think the recovery is … ALAN JOHNSON: (over) Now every other country, every other mainstream party around the world understand that except the Conservative party. ANDREW MARR: Do you think the recovery is secure? ALAN JOHNSON: Well I think it's a little bit like the flu pandemic. You know you can get over one stage and then there's another stage that's to come. In a sense, this is an economic pandemic worldwide, of course. So I don't think anyone can say that we're out of the woods yet, which is why it's crucially important to maintain the kind of things we're doing: you know the state helping people to stay in their home, the state helping to preserve half a million jobs on the latest calculation, the state helping small businesses to get through - everything from the VAT cut to car scrappage. None of that would have been done under the Tories. The Tories is laissez-faire. It's a new Notting Hill version of laissez-faire. ANDREW MARR: Sure. ALAN JOHNSON: So you know nothing's changed there. And you know I think Cameron's speech was a kind of basic deceit that they have changed and that we have failed, and we have to counter both of those accusations. Well one accusation and one … ANDREW MARR: (over) Well you've talked about Cameron, you've talked about Cameron. What about Gordon Brown? I mean I got into a certain amount of controversy, as you may recall, during the party conference on that issue. But you see him a lot, you see him behind the scenes and so on. Do you have any doubt at all that he will fight the next election as Prime Minister, or do you think there is some possibility that he may decide to step aside? ALAN JOHNSON: No possibility whatsoever. He'll fight the next election. ANDREW MARR: You're absolutely sure about that? ALAN JOHNSON: You've got to be careful this programme doesn't turn into Dr Finlay's Casebook. He is fit and well and able and determined and energetic You say that I see him close up … ANDREW MARR: (over) So what's his problem, what's his problem? ALAN JOHNSON: I wish everyone could see him that close. ANDREW MARR: So what's his problem, I mean because clearly you know that doesn't communicate itself to the public what you say? What's the problem? ALAN JOHNSON: Well look, I think … I think you have to just take your eyes … When you're involved in politics … I was talking to Bertie earlier on who was telling me how they were, his party was 16 points behind in the opinion polls six weeks ahead of an election. You know I remember going to America when Bush was a shoe in in 1991 for the next presidential election and it all changed and Clinton won. You know you just have to … If you try and follow the focus groups and you try and follow the opinion polls, you'll get nowhere - particularly in this time of really serious international financial crisis. So I think Gordon has to stay Gordon. There's an issue about credibility, there's an issue about judgement. Cameron decided that was going to be the issue. Let's make that the issue. And there's an issue about authenticity. And I think Gordon ticks all those boxes and passes all those tests. ANDREW MARR: A lot of people had the impression before the party conference season that somehow the fight had gone out of the cabinet; that people didn't really want to come up and defend the government, that they were punch drunk, exhausted, looking ahead to their lives after politics whatever it might be. Do you really think this cabinet has got the fight to take it through? ALAN JOHNSON: I think it more than ever before. You know I was in the party when we drifted out of power in the late 60s and the late 70s, and you know we were kind of oppos… with almost a sigh of relief back to opposition. Now we've seen, you know we've won three elections. We've seen what you can do over a long period of time changing society. If you look at Ed Miliband on energy, if you look at - with energy as well - if you look at Ed Balls on his white paper on education, if you look at Andy Burnham on the future of adult social care, if you look at Peter Mandelson saying what kind of economy we will be when we come through this recession - you know there's absolutely no, there's no justification for saying we've run out of ideas or we've run out of steam. ANDREW MARR: If there is a philosophical challenge or critique of the government - and it does relate directly to your own area - it's been that you've spent a huge amount of money from the centre. You've had all these directives, targets, ASBOs and so on, and actually it hasn't given you the purchase on changing society, changing schools and hospitals and indeed communities for the better. (Johnson sighs) Some of the communities that Tony Blair went to in 97 and said, "I'm going to change this place" are at least as bad now as when you started. ALAN JOHNSON: And some have improved dramatically. Look, there's a very important fundamental truth in what you say, but I'll come back to that in a second. What you have to look at is the school results. You know inner London - 32% of kids got 5 decent GCSEs in 97 when we came into power. Now it's something like 68%, 70%. When you look at what's happening in the health service. With those long waiting lists of over two years, people died on waiting lists. So … And if you look at crime and disorder, of course, the only government, only government - not post-war but pre-war - that's ever seen a reduction in crime, including violent crime. The truth you say is that - and this is where I think antisocial behaviour, the issue here - you introduce the legislation, as Jack Straw did in 98 - groundbreaking, the Crime and Disorder Act allowing all these powers, allowing the different authorities to come together to tackle it - but you need some time to make sure it's being done properly. You know these are tools that have only been available to them for a comparatively short time. ANDREW MARR: I mean in some areas, like for instance 24 hour drinking and indeed the use of ASBOs, in many ways you've had to go back and revise that and say well actually it's not working because I mean the number of people breaking first time ASBOs, the number of places where there are real worries about the social effects of 24 hour drinking … ALAN JOHNSON: Yuh. ANDREW MARR: … you haven't got it right. ALAN JOHNSON: Well we have to get the facts rather than the fiction. On ASBOs, 65% comply after the first ASBO; 83% after the second; 95% after the third intervention. Now that's in the context of people who were suffering from antisocial behaviour night after night after night. So with antisocial behaviour, we're not looking to introduce any new legislation, we're not looking at new measures. We're looking at making the existing measures work better. And I said as soon as I became Home Secretary, on this programme, that antisocial behaviour was going to be my priority. On drinking, actually the volume of drinking is going down. The number of young people drinking is going down. Those who do drink, drink more - so it's a binge drinking issue here. But there was nothing in what the Tories said last week that we either aren't doing or that isn't on the stocks to do. ANDREW MARR: But when they say actually the state has grown a bit too big, a big too meddlesome and is meddling in a not terribly effective way a lot of the time, isn't there a commonsense truth there? ALAN JOHNSON: No, rubbish. This is their argument for laissez-faire. This is why they can't wait to get their hands on the public services. It's what they believe. And it's a valid belief. I disagree with it, but it's … Daniel Hannan voices an opinion on the NHS that's shared by people like Charles Moore, who I respect for his consistency of view. Cameron's trying to cover all that up, but that's where they want to be. You know in terms of people having control over their own lives, literally, literally we've done that. For disabled people who depended on the state … ANDREW MARR: Yeah. ALAN JOHNSON: … we've given them their own budgets and their own … And you know that's just an example of how we want to ensure that people have control of their own destiny. ANDREW MARR: Every time we meet, and purely to be irritating, I ask you if you want to be Prime Minister, and every time you say no. So let me ask you again. ALAN JOHNSON: (over) No, I'm not … ANDREW MARR: Do you still not want to be Prime Minister. ALAN JOHNSON: Don't audition me for a part I haven't applied for. ANDREW MARR: Alright. And won't apply for? ALAN JOHNSON: No. ANDREW MARR: And won't apply for. Alan Johnson, for now thank you very much indeed. INTERVIEW ENDS
Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.
NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy
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