Fighting to win

On Sunday 02 August Stephanie Flanders interviewed Harriet Harman MP, Leader of the Commons and Deputy Labour Leader

Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

"I don't believe we have lost (the next) election."

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

Harriet Harman MP, Leader of the Commons and Deputy Labour Leader

Now Harriet Harman already has a formidable list of responsibilities: Deputy Leader and Chair of the Labour Party, Leader of the Commons and Equalities Minister.

Now she's enjoying a stint in charge of the whole government, running the show from Downing Street while the Prime Minister takes his summer break.

In a newspaper interview today, she makes the case for women at the top table sharing power with men.

Well Harriet Harman is with me now. Harriet, nice to see you.

HARRIET HARMAN:

Good morning.

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

Now because you're in charge, we get to ask you about anything. I'm tempted to test you on the most obscure bits of policy but I won't.

HARRIET HARMAN:

Fire away! Please do!

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

We have already been discussing the Gary McKinnon case. And, as I said, I was interested in your perspective on this because of your background as a human rights lawyer and campaigner. Does it make you uncomfortable, this case? Do you think it's a case of justice being done if he is sent back to the US or sent to the US?

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well I think the important principle here is that it shouldn't be ministers, it shouldn't be politicians who make judgements about the criminal justice system. And just as we don't accept here that politicians or ministers can say to the police, "This is somebody you should investigate", "Oh don't investigate this person", or say to the prosecutors, "Go ahead with this prosecution, but don't go ahead with that" - similarly with the extradition process, we've got a legally based process which says that if the Americans or the Spanish or any other country which we think has got a fair criminal justice system, if they say look somebody's committed an offence here which is a serious offence and we don't want them to escape justice …

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

(over) Do you think he's a threat to US national security, Gary McKinnon?

HARRIET HARMAN:

I think that if the Americans (as they have) have made out in court a case that this is an allegation of offence which is of sufficient seriousness that they want him to stand trial in America, I don't think it should be for the British government or any British politician to say we're going to second guess the criminal justice system. Now I do think it's a responsibility for us, and the Home Secretary has made it absolutely clear that anybody who is taken over - and especially Gary McKinnon - that he should be properly looked after when he's over there. And also …

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

(over) And what are the conversations that are being had with the Obama administration? Has he talked to the Obama administration about this?

HARRIET HARMAN:

Who? The Prime Minister?

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

Well or the Home Secretary. Are there conversations going on?

HARRIET HARMAN:

There certainly have been assurances sought and given that if and when the extradition takes place - and of course there is still further legal process to take place in this country - but if and when he is taken over to America, that his health needs will be attended to. And if - and of course people are innocent till they're proved guilty - but if he's found guilty, then obviously straightaway we'll seek for him to serve any prison sentence, if he is sentenced to prison, back in this country. So to that extent, the Home Secretary in terms of his welfare and how he's going to be treated is involved. But I don't think it's right for the Home Secretary to say we're going to decide this person should be extradited but this person, no we don't want you to put him on trial.

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

Well but you're saying the Home Secretary says that it's cut and dried, but I mean Nick Clegg and others have said there's a very simple solution: if you charge him here, immediately the proceedings for extradition stop. Why can't you do that?

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well it's not the Home Secretary who said it's cut and dried. It's actually the court that has said it's cut and dried. And the DPP has said because the witnesses are in America, because the damage that was alleged to have been done is in America, because the evidence is in America - that actually that is the appropriate place to put him on trial, not here in this country, and it wouldn't really be possible to try him in this country.

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

But you've talked in the past about the court of public opinion versus the court of the legal courts. There's a lot of people who really have been disturbed by this case. Doesn't it at the very least suggest that you need to look again at that extradition treaty, which seems to be very imbalanced vis-à-vis our power and the US power?

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well I don't think it is imbalanced because actually the Americans have never refused to extradite back to us somebody we think should stand trial here. So it works both ways. But I do think public opinion is concerned that Gary McKinnon should be properly looked after if he's extradited, and that if …

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

(over) But you personally, you're not troubled by it - by the way this has proceeded?

HARRIET HARMAN:

I'm glad that assurances have been sought and have actually been given that his health needs will be attended to. And I think that's an appropriate thing for government to do if one of its citizens is going to be tried abroad, but not actually to second guess the criminal justice system. We don't find people guilty or not guilty. That's not the job of ministers.

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

But there is, there is some discretion here and this is just something that outrages people. And you know one suspects, knowing what you did in the past as a human rights campaigner, you would have been on the other side of this a few years ago. This is a man who has Asperger's Syndrome, who is not a risk to the national security - at least as far as anyone can see. I think people would find it strange that you're not troubled by it.

HARRIET HARMAN:

I would have been on the side of making sure that there is a fair and open system where he can challenge his extradition - and he has done; where the Americans have to prove why they think he should stand trial - and they have done. And I've never been in favour of politicians or ministers second guessing the courts, but I certainly am in favour of the welfare of suspects being looked after and that certainly must happen in Gary McKinnon's case.

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

Do you think … I mean we mentioned at the start there's been quite a few legal cases this week. Another case where it seems that the government is sort of stepping back and allowing the judgements of the law to continue and even be changed, even without parliament taking a role on something that people really care about, is this assisted suicide situation. Do you think now that it does need to go into a bill, that it needs to go before parliament rather than have these decisions be made by judges?

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well the decisions about whether to prosecute are made by the DPP, the Director of Public Prosecutions, and the Crown Prosecution Service, and they have to decide is there enough evidence in this case that there's more likely than not going to be a conviction, and is it in the public interest to prosecute? And it's about that second issue that there's been the controversy. And the legal case has been to say you should set out some guidelines about where you think prosecution would not be in the public interest, so that if somebody assists somebody by taking them to Switzerland, to Dignitas, they would know whether or not they're likely to be prosecuted. So I think the DPP is now going to set out some guidelines, which I imagine will say if there is evidence that somebody's had a financial vested interest or if there's been pressure brought to bear, then there would of course be a prosecution. But I think you're right to identify that this is on the boundary between prosecutorial discretion and legislative definition.

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

(over) Aren't you sort of …

HARRIET HARMAN:

I think it's quite …

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

But you are, I mean you're passing the buck on it a bit. I mean it's a change of, massive change of interpretation of the Suicide Act without parliament debating it. Isn't this what we elect our MPs to do?

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well it's not, it's not a massive change. It's about the courts saying that it's reasonable for the DPP to set out the criteria which he would consider when he's deciding whether or not a prosecution is in the public interest. But there is a lot of interest in this, in the House of Commons and in the House of Lords, and it might well be that after the DPP has issued its guidance, there are further debates in the House of Commons. I would be very surprised if there weren't. And if there are any decisions to be made, they are treated as a matter of conscience and on a free vote.

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

What do you … I mean what do you think personally about this? Are you sympathetic to Debbie Purdy and indeed all of those who just want clarity on this and a way to die in a way of their choosing?

HARRIET HARMAN:

Yes I am and I've always made it clear that if there were a free vote on that, then I would vote in support of that. But I think that the prosecutors now, setting out the guidelines, that might give enough clarity in order to settle the issue for the time being.

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

Now let me go to something which is bang in your usual turf, which is the Equalities and Human Rights Commission. There's been a bit of a mess the last month. You appointed Trevor Phillips, a very close ally of yours - you reappointed him. He's now lost six commissioners, all of whom say it's his leadership that's at fault, and you've got a National Audit Office Report suggesting that nearly a million pounds was mis-spent hiring and rehiring people who were made redundant. This is in your patch. Were you right to reappoint Trevor Phillips?

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well I'm very concerned that the commission has had such a turbulent time because if you're a disable person who's fighting for your rights, you want to see a commission which is focused on you, not looking inwards and having arguments amongst itself. But I think that when it comes to the commission, it's going to have an even more important role in the future because this is not just a question of individuals' rights - important as they are - but it's also that our economy can't prosper if it's blinkered by prejudice and discrimination. So I do think it's important that the commission gets on a sound and stable footing. And I would say about Trevor Phillips that he's been a longstanding champion for equality. And, as I know only too well, fighting for equality is a very controversial thing and it can bring you many enemies as well as friends. But I have full confidence now that he's going to put it on a proper footing and it will face outwards and champion those issues which are so important to so many people, which is equality and fairness.

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

Full confidence is normally a reason to worry about the future of your own position when someone says that.

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well I've reappointed him. He's got an important job to get on with and I'm sure he will.

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

But that's not what these senior figures, very well respected people, said about him. They said it's his leadership that's at fault. You're suggesting his leadership was great but the structure was wrong. Well this government created the structure.

HARRIET HARMAN:

Yes and I think … On reflection, I think that it is important that people outside … If you're somebody who's suffered race discrimination or worried that your children at school because they're black, there's going to be low expectations for them educationally and they're not going to be able to make their way in life, you want to see a commission standing up on those issues. If you're a woman who feels you've been underpaid, you want a commission who understands that. And what I would say …

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

(over) But that's just what everyone said. When you created it, they said they wouldn't be able to do … that one man, one commission wouldn't be able to answer all of these concerns.

HARRIET HARMAN:

But I don't think what you want is five separate equality commissions - one for older people, one on disability, one on race, one for women. I think it's right to bring them all together, but I don't think you should necessarily have it as amorphous, one overarching human rights concept. You need to be able to see the different strands of discrimination. And this sounds like rather a technical issue, but I think that it needs to get its act together much more strongly, be on a more stronger footing, and I'm sure it will do that. And you know Trevor is a longstanding campaigner and he will do that with a new …

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

(over) And a great friend of yours.

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well …

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

I mean there is a sense of pallyness. People say you're defending him because he's one of yours.

HARRIET HARMAN:

No, I'd say, Stephanie, that's not true. I mean you know he's not a socialising particularly friend of mine. I've known of his work for many years, and I admire the work he does and I think he's got a massively important job to get on with. And I don't think you're ever going to ever have a Chair of the Equality Commission who is not controversial, otherwise I think that they wouldn't be doing their job. But I do think that they need to be looking outwards and that's what they're going to be doing.

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

Well just getting on to … We haven't got much more time, but I wanted to get onto the general political situation. We had the outgoing minister, Mark Malloch-Brown, talk about the prospects for Labour being "remarkably bleak". You've been talking today about the need to have woman at the top. Are women the answer to Labour's fortunes? What is the way out of this? Is there a way out of this for Labour?

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well I think a team of women and men fighting for people in this country, and a team of women and men ministers making sure that this country gets through the economic crisis and too many more people don't lose their jobs and too many more businesses don't go under. So I think a team of women and men working together in this country's interests, and also a team of women and men in Labour, which is the party of equality, fighting to win the next election. And I don't accept one moment all those people who say, you know starting with the Tories who I think are insufferably arrogant about this, say oh Labour's already lost the next election - we've already won it, we already have the keys of Downing Street. I think that's arrogant, I think it's taking the voters for granted, and I don't believe at all that we've lost the next election. I think we're in it for the fight. We're fighting for the economy, we're fighting for a further term, and we're fighting to win.

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

Well you talk about fighting to win. If you read the papers, you're also fighting Lord Mandelson over various things, including paternity leave. Nothing …

HARRIET HARMAN:

No, it's not true.

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

… nothing to share with us?

HARRIET HARMAN:

No, it's not true. And I am foremost in my support for the work of Lord Mandelson. I think it's incredibly important that a time when confidence in business is so crucial, that businesses big and small can see a really big figure at the heart of government speaking up on the important issues. And …

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

(over) Is it true that he stole - just because we don't have very much time - is it true that he stole the thunder of the Prime Minister in talking about this debate with David Cameron? Was that something that the Prime Minister was going to announce in conference?

HARRIET HARMAN:

(over) No, Peter Mandelson, like all of us in the cabinet, is there to support the Prime Minister. And he, like I have, got great confidence that when it comes to the General Election campaign, David …

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

(over) Will there be a debate?

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well when it comes to the election campaign, whether or not there's a debate - and no announcement's been made about that - is that David Cameron will be actually put on the spot and he will have to answer how on earth it is that he's managed to change his economic views you know every day of the week; how he's said that in the face of a global economic crisis, they would do nothing to protect jobs and businesses.

So actually I think that it has been a difficult time for government, it's therefore been an easy time to be in opposition - but come the General Election, I think you'll see us fighting through.

STEPHANIE FLANDERS:

Harriet Harman, thanks very much.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

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