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On Sunday 21 June Andrew Marr interviewed Morgan Tsvangirai, Prime Minister, Zimbabwe

Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

Morgan Tsvangirai: Zimbabwe Prime Minister on Mugabe and the future.

ANDREW MARR:

Morgan Tsvangirai, Prime Minister, Zimbabwe

Now back to politics again. As Leader of Zimbabwe's Opposition, Morgan Tsvangirai survived assassination attempts, beatings, and imprisonment.

He knows first hand what the regime of President Mugabe was capable of, and so why did he agree to go into government with Mugabe?

He says it's the country's best hope, and over the past week or so that's the message he's given President Obama in Washington and he's going to bring to our Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary when he meets them tomorrow.

But when he addressed Zimbabwean exiles here yesterday and appealed for them to return home, they made clear that they're not at all convinced by this strategy or claims that he's making political progress.

Well in a moment I'm going to be talking to Morgan Tsvangirai, but first the BBC's Mike Thompson recently reported under cover from Zimbabwe and here's his assessment of the situation there.

[MIKE THOMPSON VT]

ANDREW MARR:

Mike Thompson reporting there. And the Prime Minister of Zimbabwe, Morgan Tsvangirai, is with me now. Thank you for coming in, Mr Tsvangirai.

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

Thank you, Andrew.

ANDREW MARR:

Mike Thompson made the point there, quite rightly, that at the core of all of this is political reform. He had to report under cover. When do you think, for instance, in Zimbabwe we will see anything like a free media?

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

Andrew, the process of media reform is underway. By the end of this month, we should be in a position of putting up a Zimbabwe Media Commission, and remember that the media commission in terms of the law is the one that is responsible for licensing - licensing radios, newspapers, and also allowing foreign correspondents to operate in the country. End of June, that should be in place. Hopefully in July, you can come to Zimbabwe.

ANDREW MARR:

Very interesting. When Zimbabweans booed and heckled you last night at Southwark Cathedral, did you understand why they were sceptical and why they are so reluctant to go back to the country yet?

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

Yeah, I understand very well. I understand that some of them left under circumstances, involuntarily exiling themselves because of the circumstances back home then. We are in a new political dispensation and we are four months into it. The situation is totally different from what they had expected two, three, four years ago.

ANDREW MARR:

Tell me about your relationship with Mr Mugabe. Here is a man whose thugs killed your supporters in large numbers, terrorised many other people in the country, and it seemed to a lot of the outside world simply unbelievable that the two of you could come together in anything like harmony.

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

It was the same with me. It's an extraordinary experience.

ANDREW MARR:

Do you talk to him much?

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

Oh yeah, I do. I have a weekly meeting with him. As Prime Minister and President, we meet in cabinet. We meet whenever I want to meet him. Look, we all know of a post-conflict situation. We had the similar experience in 1980. Mugabe declared reconciliation with the very same enemies he was fighting. In South Africa, Nelson Mandela did the same. So it's not an unusual experiment, it's not an unusual situation.

ANDREW MARR:

I suppose what makes it unusual is that in the past, whether it's South Africa or anywhere else, the transition has happened once the old order accepted that it had lost, that you know history had moved in another direction. And it seems, given what's happening still in Zimbabwe with the seizure of farms, for instance, and the behaviour of Zanu thugs in the streets, that Mr Mugabe does not accept that.

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

No, no, Mr Mugabe has already moved. He has already accepted that this is a process of transition and that after two years we should go for an election. He has already accepted that.

ANDREW MARR:

And do you think it'll be a fair election?

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

It will be a fair election because we are transforming the electoral environment. We are transforming the institutions that were used to abuse people.

ANDREW MARR:

But, as I said, I mean the seizure of farms is actually accelerating in some areas. There's still people being arrested and put in prison for their political views.

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

Andrew, the truth of the matter is that in 19... in 2000, when the farm invasions took place, a lot of farmers left the country. The few that are left, I don't think that we can count them in a handful. They're just a handful. And the incidence of so-called farm invasions, I can count them. I know incidents like that, but it's not an explosion that it is almost like we have started all over again to disrupt farm productions.

ANDREW MARR:

You can't, however, even as Prime Minister guarantee that the few that remain will stay in the hands of their legal owners, can you?

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

Well they are. We are putting in place a system. We have all accepted that the first ten years of land reform has not been perfect and …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) It's been a disaster, hasn't it?

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

It has been a disaster. We all accept that across the political divide. But remember that the principle of equitable, transparent land reform has always been something that is shared amongst all … both the parties.

ANDREW MARR:

And given that Mr Mugabe has retained power over the sort of surveillance and the security parts of the state and the army and the police, I mean I read - I don't know if it's true - that you're not even allowed to use the Prime Minister's house and that you're not being helped particularly by Zimbabwean diplomats abroad. Do you really think he means it, or are you worried that you're going to be used - fashionable phrase here is window dressing?

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

Well there's no window dressing here. Remember that the executive authority of government resides in the President, Prime Minister and Cabinet; that the decision of these three parties is by consensus. Yes, it's not perfect, yes I admit that we would have accelerated the implementation of the global political agreement benchmarks, but certainly we are on the way and it's irreversible.

ANDREW MARR:

Your own, your own candidate for agriculture minister was arrested. I mean you're still in that position.

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

Well let me just explain. It doesn't mean necessarily that when you are in cabinet when the police arrest people. The only underlying thing I want to say is that there should be due process; and, secondly, that there should be no politically motivated arrests. And this is what is accepted. You have to make an assessment over the last four months the difference between what has happened before that and what is happening now in the future.

ANDREW MARR:

So you look Mr Mugabe (this extraordinary man who's done so much damage) in the eye, and you think either that he's changed or that he realises that at some level he's failed?

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

Well it would be both, it would be both - that his government has failed and that the only way out of this crisis, out of this country looking in the precipice is shared legitimacy.

ANDREW MARR:

If you're right and if there is a change beginning to happen in the country, a lot of Western governments are still very sceptical. They don't want to put in the kind of money that is clearly necessary and that you've been asking for.

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

Well there is a difference between being sceptical and accepting that change is taking place. I think they have moved from being sceptical to accepting that there is progress; that this progress must be consolidated, that this transition must be strengthened because it strengthens the reform towards a proper democracy. And we accepted this.

ANDREW MARR:

And do you feel that you have real authority in the sense that if you think things are not going fast enough, you can still walk out again?

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

Absolutely! And the thing is that the bottom line is that, look, we went in this government to achieve one thing - it is to achieve ultimately democracy and democratic elections - and that through this process there will be certain reforms, democratic reforms, stabilisation reforms that are necessary in order to establish that environment.

ANDREW MARR:

And if you're going to make that transition, what about all of those Zanu-PF people who have had a very easy and a good life clinging to the remnants of the country and asking themselves but if there is a democratic election, what's going to happen to us? Are you going to have to give them promises and pledges you know about their future security and …?

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

(over) This is a political compromise …

ANDREW MARR:

Yuh.

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

… that accepts that the status quo does not hold, the future is the only bright spot for everyone, and that as we move forward there'll be no point in us looking back to reward those that have caused the country to go where it is. At the same time, we are defining a new destiny for the country and they have nothing to fear as long as we can set a new direction in which everyone feels confident and is reconciled to the future.

ANDREW MARR:

When you see Gordon Brown and David Miliband tomorrow, what are you going to be asking them for?

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

The same as I've asked everyone. Let's re-establish normal relations with Zimbabwe and the UK, let's have transitional support because it is important to support this transition in order to strengthen the democratic reforms that are there. And that's the direction I am asking.

ANDREW MARR:

And they're presumably going to come back and say, "Well show us a freer country. Show us a free press. Show us an end to intimidation on the streets and we'll be seriously interested in sending money".

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

I have never said that it should be done one off. I have said that it should be phased, it should be rewarding progress. And as we make progress on these areas, so should also the world respond.

ANDREW MARR:

But they're also going to be saying that it's too early to lift sanctions, particularly on Mr Mugabe and his hench people. And they're right about that, aren't they?

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

Well let's discuss about that. But the thing is that if we are making progress, there is no need to continue taking the same position as where before progress has been made.

ANDREW MARR:

And what was your sense about President Obama's reaction to what you were saying? Did you feel he was sceptical, or did you think that he was listening intently and was quite interested?

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

He was interested to see progress. He was interested to see that we don't slide back. That we are making progress, that we are making incremental gains, that we are actually moving on the right track.

ANDREW MARR:

Yes.

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

And on that, I agree.

ANDREW MARR:

You've had a terrible, terrible time recently with of course the loss of your wife and grandson and the terrible beatings and so on that you've … and assassination attempts that you've faced. Do you still fear for your own personal security and your own life in Zimbabwe?

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

I am beyond that. There are more people exposed to this kind of experience in the past. I am more confident that we would rather avoid that kind of experience for the future and that the basis of laying down this new political dispensation will guarantee that Zimbabweans will be free again.

ANDREW MARR:

And when you see something like Amnesty's last report, which again was very bleak about Zimbabwe, do you think they're simply behind the times or are you being too optimistic?

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

I think both worlds have to make an assessment, an objective assessment. And I think that I can say confidently that perhaps they are still steeped in the past.

ANDREW MARR:

Alright. Mr Tsvanigari, thank you very much indeed for coming in and good luck.

MORGAN TSVANGIRAI:

Thank you.

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

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