'Come and be a Conservative candidate'

On Sunday 24 May Andrew Marr interviewed David Cameron MP, Leader, Conservative Party

Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

David Cameron throws open his party's selection process.

ANDREW MARR:

ANDREW MARR:

Now so far it is probably fair to say that Conservative MP's have come out just as badly as Labour MP's from the expenses affair - unless you count a duck house as a better class of freebie than a plasma television.

Four senior Tories have decided to spend more time with their families after conversations with their Leader. "Back down or I will sack you" seems to have been the message.

But how many more are there in trouble and won't it take more than just a change of faces to restore faith in parliament? David Cameron joins me now. Welcome.

DAVID CAMERON:

Good morning.

ANDREW MARR:

Let's start with one of the faces on a lot of the front pages this morning, Andrew McKay. Did you give him an ultimatum?

DAVID CAMERON:

Well we discussed it yesterday, and the right thing we decided for him to do was to stand down, to retire at the next election.

When his case came out, he immediately stood down from my front bench. He had a very senior role in my team. That was the right thing to do.

But I considered it further and, frankly, I want to be consistent, I want to be firm, I want to be fair, and to do that I think that because his is one of the more serious cases we've had on the Conservative side, I think it is right for him to announce - as he has done - that he'll be retiring.

ANDREW MARR:

Because people are interested because he came out of that public meeting saying he thought it had gone rather well. And then...

DAVID CAMERON:

Yes, this is not connected to the public meeting. This was a separate conversation, a separate decision about what is right.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) But did you say to him, "You've really got to go"?

DAVID CAMERON:

Well I don't want to divulge every bit of a private conversation, but you know frankly we had a very straightforward conversation about it and the right decision that we took was for him to retire.

ANDREW MARR:

But it was absolutely mutual? It wasn't you telling him?

DAVID CAMERON:

It was a decision that he took after a conversation with me. It was the right thing to do.

ANDREW MARR:

Not entirely mutual. What about his wife? Julie Kirkbride seems to be in much the same position.

DAVID CAMERON:

Well no, I think you have to look at each MP's claim separately. And to be fair to Julie, you know she does genuinely live in London - that is where her son goes to school, that's her main home - and she does genuinely have a home in her constituency on which...

ANDREW MARR:

(over) But the tax…

DAVID CAMERON:

Hang on.... on which she claims her second-home allowance. So I do think that we have to look at that case separately. Obviously there are some questions raised in the papers today about other people living in the house...

ANDREW MARR:

Yes.

DAVID CAMERON:

...and she'll have to answer those questions. But I do think the two cases are actually quite different.

ANDREW MARR:

Should you not have suspended Andrew McKay when you first heard about this?

DAVID CAMERON:

Well I think I immediately made sure that he left the front bench. That was very swift action. But on reflection, you know this is one of the more serious cases that I've been confronted with and, as I say, I want to be consistent and fair. I think that's important. And with other MP's with very large and unjustifiable claims, they are retiring - people like Peter Viggers - and I think it's... I have to be consistent. Now...

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Okay, so...

DAVID CAMERON:

… you can say well you took a bit long to... Well you know these things, sometimes you don't get it absolutely right first go. But I think this is the right thing to do. I think it's, I would say, quite a contrast with what's going on elsewhere, but there we are.

ANDREW MARR:

You as it were are sitting in judgement on fellow Members of Parliament and you say you want to be "consistent". What are your lines in the sand because there are people who have bent the rules, who have claimed...

DAVID CAMERON:

Yuh.

ANDREW MARR:

… ridiculously large amounts of money, but are still inside the rules; and there are people who are clearly going to face prosecution or are at least in trouble with the tax authorities? So how do you draw those lines?

DAVID CAMERON:

Well I put in place a very robust system where we've set up a scrutiny panel that has independent membership, as well as the Chief Whip and others on it. It is going through case by case every Conservative MP's second-home allowance and it is asking them to pay back money in cases where it should be paid back. Now if they don't pay back that money, if they don't cooperate with the scrutiny panel, I will withdraw the Whip. So that is a very clear line in the sand, if you like. Where there are cases that are obviously excessive or people have gone outside the rules, I don't rule out taking the Whip away from them. I will do what is right in every case. But let me just say this, Andrew.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) You've described very clearly the process.

DAVID CAMERON:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

I suppose what I'm asking about are the principles. In other words, is there a sum of money beyond which you think people really can't survive or be sustained? Is it a question of house flipping, everyone who house flips should stand down? How does...

DAVID CAMERON:

Well no, I think you have to look at each case on its merit. But the basic principle is that if people have claimed amounts of money that do not appear reasonable or justified, then that will be gone through by the scrutiny panel.

ANDREW MARR:

But if they pay the money back, does that then get them off the hook?

DAVID CAMERON:

Well unless they've broken the rules. If there's something... I mean I think in the case of Andrew McKay, this - as I say - was one of the most serious cases we've had. It was technically within the rules, but I've said you know that's not enough. We have to look at whether this was a reasonable judgement. This was not a reasonable judgement. It was a mis-judgement and as a result he is paying the price for that.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) And do you feel...

DAVID CAMERON:

But in the end, Andrew, you know I will as a Party Leader yes get MP's to pay back money; yes, my Shadow Cabinet have led by example; yes, I will remove the Whip in cases where people have behaved very badly; yes, some MP's will be retiring because the alternative would be Whip withdrawal. Yes, I can do all of these things and I will do, but actually that is not enough. We cannot just do this ourselves. The public wants to be involved, and the way to involve the public is to have a general election. That is the right answer...

ANDREW MARR:

Well...

DAVID CAMERON:

… and I've been utterly consistent about that.

ANDREW MARR:

There is an argument against having a General Election right now, which is that we're still going through the process of finding out which MP's are responsible for what. You're going through the process of that. If we have a General Election right now, quite a lot of MP's who have misbehaved could be straight back into the next parliament.

DAVID CAMERON:

Let me answer that very directly. If the Prime Minister set the date for an election now - at the end of July or at the beginning of September - that would be the funnel through which all of this activity has to take place. Every party leader would be asking, "Have I got the right team?" Every constituency would be asking, "Am I happy with this Member of Parliament or this candidate? Every Member of Parliament themselves would have to get to their constituencies, hold public meetings (like I did on Friday) and seek to be re-selected and adopted as the candidate at the election. You know why put it off? That's my point.

ANDREW MARR:

Okay.

DAVID CAMERON:

Don't put off what needs to be done. Let's get on with it now because actually otherwise all these changes we're making - the new Speaker, the new rules, the things that party leaders are doing to take a lead - that is only preparing the ground for the judgement that in the end must be for the public. I mean in the end parliament isn't our employers. The public, the voters, they are our employers and we need to ask them.

ANDREW MARR:

Well in which case, I mean there have been lots of ideas about reform touted in the papers over the last few days. One of them is the idea of having open as it were primary selections like they have in America. When it's your constituency party, when it's another constituency party...

DAVID CAMERON:

Yuh.

ANDREW MARR:

… very often, as you know, it's a very small number of local worthies who decide who the MP's candidate... the candidate is going to be. Is it not at least worth experimenting in throwing that open and letting everybody who wants to in the constituency come along and have a say in who the Conservative or...

DAVID CAMERON:

Yes, yes, we've had open primaries for many of our candidates for the forthcoming election, so they've been really successful, and you know opening up the hall and saying to anyone in the constituency, "Whichever party you belong to, come along and vote for the next Conservative candidate" has worked fantastically well. I'd like to see more of it.

What I'm going to do today, particularly because there are a number of MP's retiring from parliament, is I am going to reopen the Conservative candidates' list and say to anybody who wants to apply, they may not have had an involvement with the party in the past but "If you want to come in and if you believe in public service, if you want to help us clean up politics, if you share our values, come and be a Conservative candidate". And we will have many open primaries in the elections to come.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) So you could have your Joanna Lumley's or whatever coming in as Conservatives, could you?

DAVID CAMERON:

Yes, yes. I mean I think...

ANDREW MARR:

Okay.

DAVID CAMERON:

I'm all for... You know we've got to open up the talent that is available in parliament...

ANDREW MARR:

(over) She might well...

DAVID CAMERON:

… and this is an opportunity to do that.

ANDREW MARR:

She might not want to, of course, but...

DAVID CAMERON:

(over) Of course, but you know all you can do...

ANDREW MARR:

(over)... but, nonetheless, it could be people who have not been Conservative...

DAVID CAMERON:

(over) Absolutely.

ANDREW MARR:

… party members before. In which case, don't they then... Sorry, if they become then Conservative MP's, would they then have to agree with absolutely everything you said on everything, or would you give them a little bit more freedom because one of the things that people have been saying is that too many of our MP's are as it were sort of party robots controlled by the Whips?

DAVID CAMERON:

Yes, I agree with that. I think that behind the anger about expenses, there's also a deeper concern about the whole of the way our politics and our parliament works. People feel hold on, I elect these MP's, they go to parliament. They're then told by the Whips how to vote rather than voting according to their conscience. Parliament passes far too many laws, scrutinises them appallingly badly. The Select Committees are chaired by people who've been placed there by the Whips and the Prime Minister rather than elected. You know they've given power to the judges, on the one hand, and Europe on the other and the whole thing, frankly, is not in my control. That's what people I think are angry about - is they want more control over their politics and their politicians. Just... If we just sort of dust down the old argument for a written constitution and another argument for proportional representation, I think it will be entirely missing the point. What people want is a parliament they can be proud of, but they want more control over their lives at the same time.

ANDREW MARR:

Conceivable that a quarter of your current MP's could not be in the next parliament; we could see a real change in terms of the personnel?

DAVID CAMERON:

Well I can't give you the numbers, but what I can tell you is this and don't underestimate the massive change that's taken place in terms of the candidates already selected. You know I've only got 190 odd MP's. If we win the election, the change in the Conservative Parliamentary Party will be incredibly profound. Instead of 17 women MP's, we'll have close to 60; instead of just 2 candidates from black and Asian British backgrounds, we'll have more like 10; instead of people predominantly (like me) from the South of England, we'll have a far wider range of people from different backgrounds, different parts of the country. And that won't just be good for the Conservative Party. I think it'll be very good for parliament.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) And just to be...

DAVID CAMERON:

And opening up the candidates' list today and inviting people to come and apply, having more open primaries for the seats that we'll select in the future, I think is a very, very exciting moment for us to actually refresh our politics.

ANDREW MARR:

And just to be clear, Joanna Soap is watching this and thinks I could do a good job as an MP, interested in what David Cameron says, is popular in her local constituency...

DAVID CAMERON:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

… gets selected but says to you, "Look, I agree with you about schooling and taxes. I don't agree with you" - I don't know - "about Europe or Scotland" or something else. Could you as a Party Leader live with a parliament of more independent minded Conservative MP's who, frankly, rebelled a little bit more often but spoke their mind?

DAVID CAMERON:

I think... Look politics is a team game. You've still got to try and play as a team, and anyone who's part of your government does have to be subject to sort of collective responsibility. They have to sign up to the package. So you take someone like Ken Clarke. I mean clearly he doesn't agree with everything I've said about everything...

ANDREW MARR:

We've noticed, yes.

DAVID CAMERON:

… but you know he wants to be part of the team, part of a new government, and so he accepts collective responsibility. But should we have more free votes on non-manifesto items? Yes, we should. Should we have greater independence for select committees and greater independence for the committees that examine legislation? Yes, we should. Should parliament be stronger against the executive? Yes, of course it should.

ANDREW MARR:

Right.

DAVID CAMERON:

We've got a poodle at the moment.

ANDREW MARR:

One of the things you've talked about in the past has been the idea of cutting the number of MP's.

DAVID CAMERON:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

That's clearly popular out there in the country. Can you tell me that if you had the majority to do that, you would actually...

DAVID CAMERON:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

… now do that at the next parliament?

DAVID CAMERON:

Yes, we've said let's start with a 10% cut. Let's take the House from what it is now - sort of 659 or so MP's - down to 600. We could do that in a boundary review, which at the same time would make every constituency in each of the nations of the United Kingdom the same size. So I think it would be fair because the vote should have the same value. I think it would be fair as well as right. We do have more parliamentarians. If you add the Lords and Commons together, we've got more than virtually anyone apart from China. So we are, I think, over governed, and I think cutting the cost of politics and actually showing that we are tightening our belts in Westminster at a time when everyone else is having to do it would be a very good thing.

ANDREW MARR:

Well having encouraged you to say something popular, let's try and encourage you to say something unpopular, which is that...

DAVID CAMERON:

It wouldn't be very popular with MP's by the way...

ANDREW MARR:

Well...

DAVID CAMERON:

… but, nonetheless, this will be a manifesto commitment to take it down by 10%...

ANDREW MARR:

(over) And it will happen?

DAVID CAMERON:

… and it will happen.

ANDREW MARR:

And it will happen. If you're going to take away a lot of MPs' allowances and all the stuff that's caused the trouble...

DAVID CAMERON:

Yuh.

ANDREW MARR:

… don't you have to pay them more?

DAVID CAMERON:

No, I think there are always two ways through this.

ANDREW MARR:

That's the unpopular bit?

DAVID CAMERON:

Well, no. Before this all happened, there were two ways. One was you could say right, let's get rid of the allowances, have some pay and tax it. That was one route. But I think the more this goes on, the more the answer is the second route - which I've always had a stronger favour for - which is an allowance which is transparent and utterly simple. So what we actually... What I've now put in place for Conservative MP's, you can only claim for the cost of a second home in terms of mortgage interest or rent or a hotel bill. You can claim for utility bills, but you know no more furniture, no more decoration, no more patio heaters. I mean that, I think, is a good route.

ANDREW MARR:

No more well pruned wisteria.

DAVID CAMERON:

Well I claimed for a maintenance bill for my house - it wasn't a decorating bill - of which the...

ANDREW MARR:

Do you feel embarrassed about it?

DAVID CAMERON:

Well I thought it was right to pay it back because I want to show some leadership. I was asking my Shadow Cabinet to do the same, I'm asking my MP's to do the same, so I think it was right for me to take a lead and to do that.

ANDREW MARR:

You're a wealthy man. I mean one of your constituents said you were worth 30 million and you've brushed it to one side.

DAVID CAMERON:

(laughing) Well it's not, it's simply not true.

ANDREW MARR:

It's not true?

DAVID CAMERON:

(laughing) No, absolutely not true.

ANDREW MARR:

Alright, but you're a well off chap. You charge £80,000 for your second home. Is that right?

DAVID CAMERON:

Well I have two homes. I have a home in London, which is my main home - that's where my children go to school and my wife works in London as well; and then I have a home in the constituency, which I claim for the second-home allowance for. And I've tried always to claim for what I thought was reasonable, so in fact I never claimed for furniture or for food or for decorations or for anything like that. And I think that is reasonable. I've never been...

ANDREW MARR:

(over) So you think that's... So you don't feel embarrassed about that?

DAVID CAMERON:

No, I've never had a difficulty explaining to my constituents my arrangements. And partly because - I think people do understand this - a lot of people say, "Why don't we just build some flats in Westminster and MP's can stay there during the week?" What I always try and explain to people is to help keep the family together, what I do and many MP's do is the whole Cameron family goes from London to the constituency and back again, and we try and stay together so you know husband and wife are together with the kids all the time.

ANDREW MARR:

Okay.

DAVID CAMERON:

So that's what I do and I'm very happy to defend it to anybody. And I had a public meeting on Friday, which I would recommend for all MP's. I think we've all got to get out there, explain ourselves, and also say look it's not good enough to say I obeyed the rules. Here are some things I'm doing to recognise the anger that the public rightly feel.

ANDREW MARR:

And if people have bent the rules in an egregious way and are close to you, they're part of your inner group, they're not going to be protected in a way that for instance Sir Peter Viggers wasn't?

DAVID CAMERON:

Well you've seen with Andrew McKay - who, as I say, I think probably one of the more serious cases - it was within the rules; he sought the permission of the fees officer and all the rest of it. But in the end, it wasn't the right judgement to effectively not have a main home and so you know he has retired. And I think, as I say I want to be consistent and firm and fair about this, but I'm not going to baulk from taking the difficult decisions that have to be taken.

ANDREW MARR:

The Commons is going to choose a new Speaker.

DAVID CAMERON:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

Do you have a candidate in mind yourself?

DAVID CAMERON:

I don't actually, but even if I did I wouldn't...

ANDREW MARR:

You wouldn't tell me.

DAVID CAMERON:

I think it's very important...

ANDREW MARR:

Well let's...

DAVID CAMERON:

The reason why is that it must be the House of Commons as a whole selecting the new Speaker. Party leaders I think really mustn't say, "I like this one, but not that one"...

ANDREW MARR:

I see.

DAVID CAMERON:

… because the Speaker has got to be the kind of referee above the political frame.

ANDREW MARR:

But...

DAVID CAMERON:

That's why I didn't you know speak about against Speaker Martin - because I thought it would be wrong for one party leader individually to come out and say that he had to go.

ANDREW MARR:

John Bercow nonetheless has been mentioned - independent minded guy, a Conservative MP. But a lot of the papers are saying he's been a thorn in your side and all the rest of it. This is a bit of a kind of Labour gain to put him up.

DAVID CAMERON:

Look, as I say, MP's will vote individually in a secret ballot. I'll certainly take part, but I think it's very important that party leaders don't put either the black spot or the white spot on any individual candidate.

ANDREW MARR:

Okay.

DAVID CAMERON:

I think what matters is everyone's got to think we've got to have a figure of real authority. You know that's what the Commons needs - is someone who's really going to grip it and to have a sense of authority not just in the chamber but also throughout the country. I think that's what in the end is going to be the most important thing.

ANDREW MARR:

These European Elections coming up.

DAVID CAMERON:

Yeah.

ANDREW MARR:

When I was talking to Nigel Farage of UKIP, I said to him, "But the Conservatives are offering a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty even..." And he said, "No, no, no, no, they're not because if the Irish allow the Treaty to be ratified, that's it, over, and you won't get a referendum from the Conservatives".

DAVID CAMERON:

Well what we've said is that we support a referendum, we want a referendum. We want that referendum to happen now. It can happen now because the Treaty is still being discussed and debated elsewhere in Europe. It hasn't been signed and ratified by everybody. And the more people who vote Conservative on June 4th, the greater the pressure there will be on Gordon Brown to hold that referendum that he promised. And if we get the early election...

ANDREW MARR:

(over) It sounds like UKIP are right.

DAVID CAMERON:

Well no, if we get the early election that I'm asking for - either in July or in September, the Treaty's still there - we could have a referendum before Christmas. So that is what we should have.

ANDREW MARR:

But you know it's likely that Gordon Brown will hang on and won't call an early election. And if the Irish then vote for the Treaty and it's ratified, we will be in the position that UKIP talk about, which is that if you get a Conservative government afterwards, it will have been ratified. What I'm asking is in those conditions, will you hold a referendum?

DAVID CAMERON:

Well there are awful lot of ifs.

ANDREW MARR:

Yes.

DAVID CAMERON:

That's if we don't have an early election; if the Irish vote yes when last time they voted no; if the...

ANDREW MARR:

(over) They're quite likely ifs.

DAVID CAMERON:

… if the Czechs and others all actually put the Constitution through. If all of these things happen, then what happens?

ANDREW MARR:

Yes.

DAVID CAMERON:

What I've said there is we will not let matters rest. We think that too much power will have been passed from Westminster to Brussels and we'll want some of those powers back. Now at that moment, I will come on your programme and explain exactly what we'll do. Right now, I don't want to let Gordon Brown off the hook. He made a promise to hold that referendum and I'm going to try and hold him to that promise.

And if I'm elected as Prime Minister while this Treaty is still alive, I will have a referendum very, very quickly. I will recommend to people that we vote no because I don't support the European Constitution. I think we've already passed too many powers from Westminster to Brussels and we should be trying to build a different sort of European Union. And if people, you know if people are angry with the major parties and they want to vote UKIP as a result, what they'll be doing is actually letting Gordon Brown off the hook. He will be able to sit back in Downing Street and think you know I've got away with it again. I've got away with breaking my promise on holding this referendum, which was in their manifesto. And do you know this is why...

ANDREW MARR:

(over) It does sound... I think it'll sound to a lot of people watching as if you do not intend to hold a referendum in the circumstances, the not unlikely circumstances that I've outlined to you.

DAVID CAMERON:

But this is exactly what Gordon Brown and those wanting to get away with it want, which is for the Conservatives to answer a whole string of hypothetical questions about what might happen in the future. I want to maximise the pressure for a referendum right now.

ANDREW MARR:

Post these elections, you want to join a new grouping...

DAVID CAMERON:

Form a new grouping, yes.

ANDREW MARR:

Form a new grouping inside the European Parliament. Now that will put you alongside some pretty rum characters. It puts you alongside people who have said, for instance, that Barack Obama signals the end of white civilisation, who are very strongly against homosexual rights; puts you alongside people who say that global warming is a conspiracy and doesn't exist. These are not comfortable bedfellows for you.

DAVID CAMERON:

Well obviously we will not join with parties that are extremist in any way. But let me just rewind and why are we doing this? Let me try and explain that. You know as part of a new politics where we sort out expenses and clean up Westminster and all the rest of it, I think another thing that makes people absolutely furious is politicians who say one thing to one bunch of people and then something completely different to another bunch of people. Now the Conservative Party rightly wants to keep us out of the euro and keep the pound as our currency, rightly wants to bring some power back from Brussels to Westminster, rightly opposes the European Constitution and wants a referendum on it. And yet when we're in Brussels, we are currently sitting in a group with people who don't agree with any of those things. Now it seems to me right that we say the same thing in Brussels as in Westminster and that's why we're forming a new group, which will be with mainstream parties, that will be a centre right grouping but wants reform in Europe. And we will deliver that after the European Elections. At the heart of the group will be the Czech Civic Democrats who are a very close sister party of ours...

ANDREW MARR:

Okay.

DAVID CAMERON:

… and who share our view about a looser, more open trading Europe - one that includes all of the countries in Eastern Europe. But that's the future we should be fighting for.

ANDREW MARR:

Before the General Election comes, will you tell us where you're going to make the big cuts?

DAVID CAMERON:

Well we'll certainly say more. But I think that we've already said actually for an opposition party quite a lot. We've actually said more than the government has. We've said let's start reducing the government spending plans not in 2011, but let's start doing it right now. We actually said they should have reduced their spending plans for 2009. We'll do the same for 2010. And you know find me another party that actually has opposed a tax cut like we oppose the VAT cut because we said it was wrong. We said debt was too high and I think we were right.

ANDREW MARR:

Okay. For now, David Cameron, thank you very much indeed.

DAVID CAMERON:

Thank you.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

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