The Speaker must go

On Sunday 17 May Andrew Marr interviewed Nick Clegg MP, Lib Dem leader

Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

Nick Clegg MP, Lib Dem leader, says Speaker Martin should step down over expenses row.

ANDREW MARR:

Nick Clegg MP, Lib Dem leader

The Leader of the Liberal Democrats, Nick Clegg, writes in the Observer today that Britain needs a written constitution - a document that formally limits the power of politicians and enshrines the supremacy of the citizen.

He wants the public to be able to sack their local MP, and in the longer term believes that voting reform's essential.

In the shorter term, the polls this weekend indicate that voters are as disenchanted with the Lib-Dems as they are with Labour and the Tories.

It's the likes of the Greens and UKIP that are getting a fillip. And Nick Clegg is with me. Welcome.

NICK CLEGG:

Good morning.

ANDREW MARR:

Of course some people would say well voters can sack their MP's at election time, but you'd like them to be able to go further. Can we just start by explaining what you want to happen?

NICK CLEGG:

Yeah, I mean I think that one of the reasons why people are so angry about all these revelations about MP's expenses is that they feel powerless, and they now think that MP's are going to act as judge and jury on their own failings.

And that's why I think that for those MP's who've clearly been shown, proved to do something wrong, particularly those that are then suspended in the House of Commons, there should be a mechanism where a small number of people in the constituency can say, "I don't want this MP to carry on serving me".

ANDREW MARR:

So you get a couple of hundred people to do …

NICK CLEGG:

(over) I think particularly for those people who've been looked at by the Committee of Standards, have been told that they're going to be suspended from the House of Commons, they should be in effect sacked by their own constituents and you should have a by-election. Because, look, people reading about all these revelations ask themselves a very simple question.

They say if I did something like this at work, I'd be out, I'd be sacked, and they cannot understand why there seems to be no way that they - the people who are the boss - cannot exercise that kind of right over MP's who are supposed to be serving them. But I mean I think …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) And yet it's very hard to imagine MP's at the moment signing up for such a thing …

NICK CLEGG:

Well …

ANDREW MARR:

… so is this why you need a written constitution?

NICK CLEGG:

… well I think things are changing. I think for too long we've believed this hype that our parliament is the mother of all parliaments.

I actually think the history books will say that this parliament has been a rotten parliament because it sits at the heart of a system of government that is over secretive, over centralised, not accountable, in which governments are in power by only getting a fraction of the popular vote because you've got a lopsided electoral system.

So the uncomfortable truth is that I think these revelations about MP's expenses is just the tip of the iceberg. It's symptomatic of something. So, yes, we've got to sort out these MP's expenses. We've got to sort out the rest of our political system as well.

ANDREW MARR:

You wouldn't have spoken about "a rotten parliament" before all of this appeared in the newspapers. Everybody at the top of politics - yourself included, your party included - have been behind the curve on this.

NICK CLEGG:

Well to be fair to me, I think from the moment I was elected as Leader I've said quite publicly on the record over and over and over again that I don't think our politics works. I lead a party of political reform. That's what the Liberal Democrats are and always have been.

ANDREW MARR:

But also a party of people who've you know claimed £1,000 for leather armchairs and all the rest of it.

NICK CLEGG:

Oh, I've got no illusions that all mainstream political parties get hit very hard by this and that people don't distinguish between one party and another and one politician and another.

But it is of course absolutely core to certainly what brought me into politics: the belief that our politics is too secretive, too centralised, in which the power is concentrated in Westminster and Whitehall and it's a sort of Alice in Wonderland world all unto itself. That needs to change.

ANDREW MARR:

Are there particular things that you claimed for you now realise in the cold light of print you shouldn't have done and you feel embarrassed about?

NICK CLEGG:

Oh I've already paid back £80 for some telephone calls that I shouldn't have claimed …

ANDREW MARR:

Yes.

NICK CLEGG:

… you know for the taxpayer. So yes of course, where mistakes like that are made money needs to be paid back. But in my view the really abusive thing that has emerged in the revelations over the last week is this tendency for some MP's to so-called 'flip' where they go from one home to the other and they transform themselves from MP's into sharp-suited property speculators doing up homes, selling them for a personal profit and then going onto the next property.

I think that's completely wrong and, as I say, I think people should now have a say in sacking their MP's so that we get the right order of things with people in charge, not politicians.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Would you discipline, will you discipline Liberal Democrat MP's? I'm thinking of a former leader who spent £10,000 on interior decorations.

NICK CLEGG:

I've already insisted that Liberal Democrat MP's pay money back. I've also made a commitment, which goes far in excess of any other commitment made by any other party leader, saying that until new rules are in place we as Liberal Democrats, the Liberal Democrat Shadow Cabinet commits itself to pay back every penny, every pound of gain made on any second home sales where those homes have been subsidised by the taxpayer.

ANDREW MARR:

What about the position of the Speaker?

NICK CLEGG:

Convention, as you perhaps know, is that political leaders, party leaders don't talk about the Speaker. My view is that it's exactly that culture of unwritten conventions, unspoken rules, nods and winks that has got us into this trouble in the first place, and I've arrived at the conclusion that the Speaker must go. He has proved himself over some time now to be a dogged defender of the way things are, of the status quo, when what we need very urgently is someone at the heart of Westminster who will lead a wholesale, radical process of reform.

I don't think the Speaker should be made a scapegoat - of course not, that would be unfair - for the individual failings of many MP's; but equally I don't think we can afford the luxury of having a Speaker who is supposed to embody Westminster, who has been dragging his feet on transparency and greater accountability in the way in which MP's receive their expenses.

ANDREW MARR:

Well that's quite a moment. I mean I don't recall a party leader, main party leader ever calling for a Speaker to go before. It's something you've presumably chewed over long and hard?

NICK CLEGG:

Yeah I have, and I don't say it lightly and I don't say it with any relish. As it happens, I think he's … personally he's a kind and courteous man, but I don't think he is now the right man for the job in actually leading the renewal of Westminster that we need. We need a fresh start.

We need to draw a line under this and he has, his record shows that he's been far too willing to drag his feet on issues like transparency, freedom of information and really shining that light, that bright light of scrutiny on what MP's do with taxpayers' money.

ANDREW MARR:

So how would this actually happen? What would be the mechanism?

NICK CLEGG:

Well that would be obviously for the House of Commons as a whole. It's not for … You know I can't do that unilaterally, nor should I be able to, but I think that I do represent a growing body of opinion that feels that we can't have a Speaker - just look at today's newspapers - who's constantly having to field allegations that he wasn't really prepared to go that extra step forward to make Westminster more transparent and accountable to voters.

ANDREW MARR:

So like Kate Hoey, you think that to clear this up and the process between now and the election, the Commons needs a different Speaker chosen by secret ballot, somebody who is not tainted or involved in any of this?

NICK CLEGG:

Yuh, I think you need a Speaker who is a reformist to his or her fingertips. You need someone who says, "Look, we hear the public anger. It is totally understandable, it's right, it's legitimate. Westminster is now engulfed by a political crisis, the likes of which we haven't seen for generations.

We need to now do something different, radically different". And I just don't think … (Marr tries to interject) I just don't think defenders of the status quo are the right kind of people to do that thing.

ANDREW MARR:

And in terms of the way this actually works, would you now hope to sit down with David Cameron and Gordon Brown and discuss the way forward?

NICK CLEGG:

I suspect the way these things will happen is that you then get a sort of snowball effect, that more people will come out and say yes circumstances have changed, we need a new Speaker, and then exactly how it procedurally pans out is … I mean I think it needs to happen sooner rather than later. I think the Speaker probably needs to do the decent thing and recognise that things have changed and he's not the right man for the job and move on.

ANDREW MARR:

Do you think he should automatically go to the House of Lords after all of this?

NICK CLEGG:

No, I've always been … You know I don't think the House of Lords should exist in the way that it presently is formed. I think it's an absurd anachronism. It needs to change. It's a sort of throwback to the 19th century. So all this sort of traffic, automatic traffic of grandees going from one bit of Westminster to another …

ANDREW MARR:

Yes.

NICK CLEGG:

… of course I think that should end.

ANDREW MARR:

I don't remember as much public anger about anything, as is the case at the moment. What about these calls for an early election? Do you think that's going to kind of snowball as well?

NICK CLEGG:

I think it might well do. I think if it proves to be the only way to give the public their say, so that voters can say we are angry, we want to cast our judgement, then we might well need to dissolve parliament. As I say, I think this parliament will go down in history as a rotten parliament and we do need it cleaned out, renewed, and both the people and the procedures in it changed completely.

But, as I say, I think the onus right now today is to make sure that those who are responsible for the way the system works change the system as quickly as possible; and also, as I say, make these changes so that the bad MP's are held to account by their constituents, not forgetting there are many, many MP's who do a very, very good job and have done nothing wrong whatsoever.

ANDREW MARR:

Sure. Meanwhile, there's a poll coming up very soon - the European Election poll - and if you look at the opinion polls, voters don't much distinguish between the Liberal Democrats on this and the Conservatives and the Labour Party. You're all a long way down. UKIP and indeed the British National Party up. Do you think that there are things in your European posture as a party that you need to rethink? It's not simply the recent headlines, is it?

NICK CLEGG:

Oh no, I understand that people feel that the European Election is irrelevant to them, it's a distant body which they don't know very much about or don't like very much what they have heard about. I actually think it's immensely important. I'll tell you why. Just ask yourself.

If you want to protect yourself or your family from crime, if you want to protect yourself or your family from the credit crunch, from climate change, we cannot do those things alone. The weather doesn't stop at the Cliffs of Dover. You know criminality now spreads across borders. It's an international business. We cannot re-regulate the banks that got ourselves into this economic mess unless we do so internationally.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) But the mood in …

NICK CLEGG:

And that's why I think it's a very simple thing. Are we stronger together in Europe … I think we're stronger together, we're poorer apart. I think we're safer together and we're less safe apart. It doesn't mean it's … It doesn't mean it's perfect. I used to work in Europe and actually led a campaign to change Europe, to stop the waste of money of sending MEP's down to Strasbourg; but the fundamental idea that you do things better together than falling out apart, I think that's very, very important at this particular time.

ANDREW MARR:

We've had a terrible time economically, but if you look around - for instance the Irish in some respects have had a worse time, and many people blame that on them being part of the Euro and having inappropriate interest rates at the wrong time. Are you still as mustard-keen as you ever were to get Britain into the Euro?

NICK CLEGG:

I don't think the Euro is for now. I don't think it would have been right for us to go in yesterday. I happen to believe that the debate will come back and anyone who just sticks their head in the sand and thinks that this country shouldn't have a debate at some point about the Euro is fooling themselves. Just look at the world. The world is … And I tell you why.

The world is moving towards big, global reserve currencies - the dollar, the Euro; and clearly at some point - not now, at some point - we are going to have to ask ourselves about the difficulty of being a country which is very vulnerable to inflows and outflows of the big sort of money markets in the world and not having the refuge and the safety of being part of a reserve currency.

And if I could just stress this point, Andrew: I think this is about safety in numbers. Just look at crime. Actually the European Union has been immensely successful in breaking open international crime rings that now run right across, run riot right across Europe. Just recently something called Operation Koala arrested ninety people involved in a paedophile ring across Europe - half of then in the United Kingdom - released twenty-three young girls from servitude who had been subjected to that abuse for years. And, guess what, the Conservatives voted against the measures which would have made that possible. Surely …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Well some people would say that the open borders allow criminals to move much more easily between European countries. But may I just finish on one big European question? You lost three front benchers some time back (they're now back again) over this matter of giving a referendum on the European Treaty, something Kate Hoey raised as well. Don't you think when people are sceptical and cynical about politics and want every chance they can get to express their views, they really ought to have a chance to vote on this?

NICK CLEGG:

They should have a chance to vote on the fundamental question, which is are we going to be in Europe or are we going to be out of Europe. Hang on, I'll tell you why. What is deeply dishonest is to have a synthetic referendum on a very, very technical treaty called the Lisbon Treaty without actually asking the fundamental question about whether you want the whole …

ANDREW MARR:

But …

NICK CLEGG:

… the whole, the whole structure on which …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) But that's the treaty that actually exists. That's the treaty that's in front of people and that's why people therefore think that's what we should be voting on.

NICK CLEGG:

(over) But Andrew, let me … just let me put it to you like this. If you had a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and let's say the country voted against the Lisbon Treaty, what would change in the European Union the morning after that referendum vote?

Nothing! Nothing would change. It would be exactly as it is today. So what I'm saying is yes let people have their say, but let's at least be honest enough to have it on the big question, not on a legal debate which entirely distracts attention from the core question: do you want to be in Europe or outside? Do you want to be stronger together or poorer apart?

ANDREW MARR:

And you say that you know you want to listen to the mood of the country. But if UKIP and the Conservatives, who've become much more eurosceptic, do very well in these European elections, isn't that the kind of message that you leading the kind of very pro-European Party need to listen to?

NICK CLEGG:

Of course. And, as I say, I am a passionate believer in reform of Europe as I am a passionate believer in reform of Westminster, in reform of your local town hall. Of course things need to change, but I'm also a passionate believer that we are stronger together.

I've seen it myself. I used to work in Europe. I used to negotiate with the Russians and the Chinese. They listened to me - not because I was British, but because I represented the largest single economic block in the world of 475 million people. Unlike UKIP, unlike the Conservatives, I see it as an opportunity for Britain to be stronger, not weaker.

ANDREW MARR:

Alright. Nick Clegg, for now thank you very much indeed.

NICK CLEGG:

Thank you.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

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