Kenneth Clarke MP

On Sunday 3 May Andrew Marr interviewed Kenneth Clarke MP, Shadow Business Secretary

Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show ' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

ANDREW MARR:

Kenneth Clarke MP, Shadow Business Secretary

There are very few certainties in life, of course, but here is one: there will be a General Election in no more than a year and the Tories are allowing themselves to contemplate victory. Hard to conjure images, however, of a bright, new dawn given where the economy is at the moment - all these talks of tough choices and spending restraint. Familiar territory of course for Ken Clarke, former Chancellor and now Business Secretary, who joins me from our Nottingham studio. Good morning.

KENNETH CLARKE:

Good morning, Andrew.

ANDREW MARR:

And welcome. First of all, when we look at the post-Budget figures and have the argument about them, the need for either enormous tax rises or really drastic spending cuts seems obvious. Would you say to people this is a lot more than simply making savings in the usual way?

KENNETH CLARKE:

Well it's going to dominate the life of the next parliament and what you've got to do is get this debt down to a sustainable level as soon as possible. You've got to have a proper plan for doing that, which the government just completely failed to produce in the Budget. We'd prefer to tackle the spending problems because excessive spending when Gordon Brown was Chancellor is at the heart of the problem. But it needs to be done carefully and it's something we have to prepare for for when we take off, if we're successful, in May/June next year.

ANDREW MARR:

We've had all sorts of broad hints that the kind of things being looked at would include upgrading Trident, would include public sector pensions, pay and even the costs of doctors and so on in the NHS. Are these the kind of things that we should be expecting to come under the knife?

KENNETH CLARKE:

I think the problem we're going to inherit is so appalling, you're going to have to look at all the major programmes, but that doesn't mean you're going to tackle them all. A public spending round is a serious undertaking. The government was supposed to have one of its three year spending reviews in the summer of this year, 2009, but they've scrapped it, so they're drifting towards an election having pencilled in figures in their useless forecast that reduce their previous plans by several tens of billions of pounds with no indication of where it's going to come from. We are going to start discussions. Philip Hammond, our Chief Secretary - he's the man who does the Treasury's footwork in the Shadow government as it were tackling spending plans - is going to talk with colleagues to reach collective decisions about where our political priorities lie and so on. But you can't do a public spending round, which is very important, in opposition as kind of part of an election debate in advance of the circumstances you're going to inherit if you do win in June 2010. You need to go there with clarity in your own mind about how you hope to tackle it, very rapidly hold a public spending round properly involving the expertise of the Treasury, the departments and so on. This is not something you can lightly campaign about over the next twelve months.

ANDREW MARR:

Sure.

KENNETH CLARKE:

The government's just opted out of doing anything at all.

ANDREW MARR:

But people do want to hear a few clear examples. Trident has been mentioned again and again now. Would you be surprised if we still had a major nuclear deterrent in ten years time?

KENNETH CLARKE:

I think if the Conservatives had anything to do with it, we'd certainly have a nuclear deterrent. I don't think there's going to be doubts about the policy of nuclear deterrents, which in my opinion saved my generation from nuclear war - kept the Cold War cold. And the problem is, of course, you're trying to predict events twenty or thirty years ahead. We voted for the Trident replacement programme. I as a backbencher voted for the Trident replacement programme. We always knew that options would be looked at over the years - you're talking about a long time ahead. But you say hints have been dropped. What's happened is the media keep trying to pick up particular programmes. All major programmes have to be looked at. When we get in office (with some preparation in advance, which David Cameron's already set in hand) then you have a serious business of a rapid spending review. And I've done plenty of those and the Treasury gets round the table as rapidly as possible with every spending department, all of whom have some programmes that you have to look at.

ANDREW MARR:

(interjects) But the … Sorry. I'm sorry to go on about it, but the full upgrade for Trident is up for grabs, is it not? We both know that.

KENNETH CLARKE:

Well it's up for review like anything else. No, I … I do think - I mean I'm sorry for being awkward with your questions - I think you're following on from some of the things I've been reading. It's a silly guessing game to say you know this policy, that policy. It makes a story for a week, what are we going to do about Trident. Next week they'll be going on about something else. I've come back in as it were the front bench because I believe in the better governance of this country, and a public spending round of this importance needs to be carried out comprehensively. The opposition needs to prepare its priorities. You actually need more than the...

ANDREW MARR:

Can I …

KENNETH CLARKE:

… handful of people we have working for us to do this, and what you need to do is meet the government officials, the civil service, the people with the expertise on the programmes to do it properly when you get into office.

ANDREW MARR:

When the public look at the post-Budget atmosphere, however, a lot of people get quite frustrated and suspicious. Everybody is talking about you know terrible things are going to have to be done, or very drastic things are going to have to be done. This is terribly serious, it's never been in this position before since the Second World War, etcetera. And then when you get onto any detail, anything that it might actually mean, both big parties - yourselves and the Labour party - go completely silent.

KENNETH CLARKE:

Well in my opinion the government have less excuse for this. The government should be declaring how they're arriving at the new figures they have published. They're in office now! They could have started controlling waste and so on in public expenditure this year.

ANDREW MARR:

Sure.

KENNETH CLARKE:

They've refused to do anything before the election and they've actually cancelled the proper spending review, which was supposed to take place this summer. Now we do have the difficulty that we're preparing for office. I certainly keep going on about the mountain of debt and the fact that will dominate the life of the next government, whoever wins the election, but I mean I really do think it's unfair to say - and would be foolish for the opposition to respond - but it's unfair to say the opposition should go in now for some public debate at this stage about exactly where you make the savings, but savings you will have to make. What the public understand, I think, is …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) What about the very general principles like, for instance, the so-called middle class welfare state? David Davis has focused quite a lot on you know what well off pensioners get in terms of TV licences and free public transport and so on. I mean surely at least some of those basic principles ought to be up for discussion?

KENNETH CLARKE:

Well at this stage what I would say is they ought to be looked at, but they're not up for discussion and wild debate and then some decision. Apart from anything else, it is also an inescapable fact that we won't know exactly how bad things are until we get to this time next year.

ANDREW MARR:

Okay.

KENNETH CLARKE:

The one truth the public understand, as well as anybody else does, is no country can afford public spending and a public sector which is …

ANDREW MARR:

Right.

KENNETH CLARKE:

… bigger than it can pay for. That's the truth ignored for the last twelve years, unfortunately.

ANDREW MARR:

Sure. One final question, if I may. The Foreign Office has clearly been asked to make plans for a referendum on the Nice Treaty when the Conservatives come into power - a referendum you have described … Lisbon Treaty, I beg your pardon …

KENNETH CLARKE:

Sure.

ANDREW MARR:

… Lisbon Treaty.

KENNETH CLARKE:

The Nice Treaty was last but two.

ANDREW MARR:

Well you know. (laughter) I'm not sure whether either of us read that one, but …

KENNETH CLARKE:

We're all rather … We go on about repeated treaties…

ANDREW MARR:

But this is a referendum that you've described yourself as "crackpot", so you must be alarmed about this?

KENNETH CLARKE:

There are issues which I disagree on Europe. I think the Irish are going to decide the fate of the Lisbon Treaty. But, as I said when I joined the front bench, this policy's been settled I mean and I'm not going to try to change it. The party won't do it. What they've said is if it's not ratified by the next election, then they will hold a referendum. I think the Irish will decide whether it's ratified or not and I very much look forward to the debate moving on beyond all these treaties that you were just confusing … (Marr laughs) William makes it clear. He wants us to be actively involved in Europe and make a constructive contribution to Europe. There are policies like environmental policies for Europe, energy security. They're the things we should be getting on with. And any anorak can look up my views on the Lisbon Treaty. I set them out at great length in the House of Commons.

ANDREW MARR:

This failed anorak has one final question, which is that you will find yourselves as a party sitting alongside some pretty rum characters in the European Parliament, including these Poles who object to homosexuality and Barack Obama and all the rest of it. That must make you uneasy?

KENNETH CLARKE:

Well I don't know actually who the partners are that are being lined up by William and his colleagues to sit with in the European Parliament. Now, again, there's another policy that was settled before I got on the front bench that we were leaving the EPP. I have always been assured - and I think my colleagues are well aware of the danger, my colleagues are much more moderate eurosceptics than used to be leading the Conservative party in the past - and I think there's no … they do assure me they're not going to sit with Neo-Fascists or cranks or anything of this kind. These are serious political allies they're looking for.

ANDREW MARR:

Alright. Thank you very much indeed for now, Kenneth Clarke.

KENNETH CLARKE:

Pleasure.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

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