On Sunday 05 April Andrew Marr interviewed Ban Ki-Moon, United Nations Secretary General.
Please note ' The Andrew Marr Show ' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.
ANDREW MARR:
Secretary General, you called before the G20 for a trillion dollars to be made available to the poorest countries in the world. Now they're making a trillion dollars available, but not for the poorest countries.
Ban Ki-Moon
BAN KI-MOON:
I came to London with a clear message that while I would welcome these internationally co-ordinated stimulus packages for the entire world, they should never lose the sight and challenge of poorest people. Now I'm pleased to see that leaders of G20 have committed themselves to the early recovery of the world economy and they have mobilised $1.3 trillion. I hope that a significant part of this money should be going to poor people.
ANDREW MARR:
Do you have any idea how much of it has been earmarked for the poorer countries? Because, as I understand it, this is money that could go to Greece or Poland or Britain or anybody else. It's not necessarily money for Africa.
BAN KI-MOON:
They have reaffirmed their previous commitments of official development assistance, their implementation to millennium development goals. I believe that at least $300 billion should be going to official development assistance for developing countries, the most vulnerable countries, and this is very important. And by increasing another $750 billion available in World Bank and IMF to member states of the international community - and also part of this money will be going, significantly, to many developing countries - this will be close to $1 trillion. In that regard, I am pleased that world leaders have committed themselves.
ANDREW MARR:
Do you believe them though? Because after Gleneagles there were lots of promises and many of the countries which signed up to those promises are way behind what they're supposed to have signed up to - notably Italy, which is Chairman of the G8, the smaller group. Some people say that Italy should have its chairmanship stripped from it because it has so far let people down in terms of the amount of money it's actually handing over to the poor world.
BAN KI-MOON:
This G20 meeting was held in totally different atmosphere and circumstances.
BAN KI-MOON:
Leaders of G20 and whole world leaders are fully aware that unless they properly manage these circumstances, the financial circumstances that have developed into a global economic crisis, this may develop into global political instability. Therefore it is absolutely necessary. And I was very much encouraged by such a strong solidarity and sense of urgency among the G20 leaders. I am quite sure that they will meet their requirement and the expectation of the international community.
ANDREW MARR:
And does that go for Mr Berlusconi? What did you tell him? Did you tell him you were disappointed with his performance so far?
BAN KI-MOON:
I had a very good bilateral meeting with the Prime Minister Berlusconi. We discussed how we can further strengthen our cooperation through a G8 meeting in July, how we can work further to focus international political will on climate change, how we can work together for trade negotiations.
ANDREW MARR:
Did you put any pressure on him though about when it comes to his third world commitments?
BAN KI-MOON:
He made a strong commitment that he will work together with the United Nations to mobilise highest political will for climate change and also Doha Round.
ANDREW MARR:
So you will see more … we will see more money from the Italians at last, will we?
BAN KI-MOON:
I hope so.
ANDREW MARR:
You hope so. Okay. Can I ask about another crisis at the moment in front of you, which is Gaza and what happened there. There was talk after the shelling of the United Nations facility and the shelling of many, many other buildings and people in that area that war crimes had been committed. Do you think war crimes were committed?
BAN KI-MOON:
I myself visited Gaza. What I saw at that time in January was beyond description - the total destruction and very tragic life for many Gazan Palestinians. I instituted a Board of Inquiry led by Mr Ian Martin. He has conducted our own independent investigation into all what had happened. Now he's going to submit the report to me and I'm going to review all this report and decide what course of action we'll take.
ANDREW MARR:
A lot of people were disappointed though that the inquiry was an inquiry into the shelling of the United Nations facility, not an inquiry into what had gone on in Gaza generally.
BAN KI-MOON:
The Human Rights Council of the United Nations has decided that and they are in the process of taking their own course of action, their own investigation. We are waiting their investigation by the Human Rights Council; and for all other allegations of international humanitarian law violations, there must be a full and thorough investigation.
ANDREW MARR:
And if that body decided that war crimes had been committed, what would then happen?
BAN KI-MOON:
It is too early for me to say anything about that particular allegations.
ANDREW MARR:
Well let me ask you then about the arrival of Mr Netanyahu in government. Now here is an Israeli politician who does not accept the two-state solution, who's looking for much lesser outcomes for the Palestinian people, and he's surrounded by ministers whose views are, if anything, even more hard-line. What is the realistic prospect for peace at the moment in that area?
BAN KI-MOON:
Two-state solution, that vision was agreed and supported by a whole international community, including Arab countries and including a previous Israeli administration. I sincerely hope that the new leaders, Mr Netanyahu and the new Foreign Minister, they will abide by the previous agreement and start the Middle Eastern peace process from where they had left it before. This is very important. As a member of the Quartet process, I will continue to discuss this matter with Israeli leadership.
ANDREW MARR:
Do you think that this G20 meeting in London has been a turning point in world affairs?
BAN KI-MOON:
I highly commend the leadership of Prime Minister Gordon Brown. He has been very articulate and very thorough and he has demonstrated his leadership. The document declaration issued today, with the whole support of the G-leaders, is a demonstration of such a strong political will by the G20 leaders as well as very detailed implementation course of action.
ANDREW MARR:
And do you think that all those billions of people - many of them desperately poor around the world, looking to this moment to change their lives - are they really going to see anything different?
BAN KI-MOON:
I have been representing whole United Nations member states, particularly for those developing countries, and there were several African leaders who were representing the interest and well-being of African countries. And all the leaders there all supported and realised that without Africans and without most vulnerable peoples getting on board in these millennium development goals and climate change campaign, this world cannot claim that we are living in a prosperous world.
ANDREW MARR:
We've seen Mr Brown and other leaders talk about reforming the World Bank, reforming the IMF, changing the world architecture, a new fiscal boost delivered through global systems. Do you not fear at some level that the G20 is starting to replace the United Nations as the most important world organisation?
BAN KI-MOON:
G20 is a very important framework of world's richest countries as well as representative of poor countries too, representing development countries. They comprise….. 85% of the GDP of total world. That is very important. But the United Nations is truly the universal body, intergovernmental body who represent the whole world. Therefore whatever important legislative or treaty related issues will have to be eventually to the United Nations for decisions.
ANDREW MARR:
And yet you know that the United Nations' biggest problem has simply been its huge size and its difficulty in taking action around the world.
BAN KI-MOON:
Of course the United Nations needs to have some consensus building process. This may take time, but the decision based on the consensus is always most desirable and this will have legitimacy of international community.
ANDREW MARR:
The former President Bush didn't have a lot of time for the United Nations. No secret there. Do you think things are different under President Obama? Do you look forward to a new era for the UN with the Americans taking it more seriously?
BAN KI-MOON:
I am very much encouraged by President Obama's very engaging and forward looking positions vis-à-vis United Nations. I had a very good meeting with him in the Oval Office early last month. He committed such a strong partnership with the United Nations; he committed strong support for all major goals and objectives of the United Nations. I highly commended his decision to return to United Nations Human Right Council not only on this issue, on major issues. We are … I am quite confident …
ANDREW MARR:
You're together again?
BAN KI-MOON:
Yes.
ANDREW MARR:
So you think that the United Nations could not probably be sidelined under President Obama as it was under President Bush?
BAN KI-MOON:
Even under President Bush, I had maintained a good working relationship during last two years. During the last two years, I was able to get quite good support from … President Bush and his administration. Now with President Obama, I am much more encouraged, I am much more hopeful and optimistic about a very strong relationship.
ANDREW MARR:
President Bush, he didn't wait for the United Nations over Iraq, did he? So I mean when it came to the big decisions, he still did what he wanted to do. Do you think that could happen again under Obama, or do you think it's different?
BAN KI-MOON:
I'm sure that President Obama will be fully engaged with the United Nations and broader international community. That's what I have felt, that's what I expect.
ANDREW MARR:
Mr Ban, you yourself have been criticised, including by a newspaper here, for not showing decisive and clear enough leadership. They even used a rude word. I think "The Times" said there was a "vacuum" at the heart of the United Nations. What do you say to your critics?
BAN KI-MOON:
One's leadership should not be judged by what and how one does.
ANDREW MARR:
Should it not?
BAN KI-MOON:
Kind of some humility should not be judged as lack of leadership. I have made quite decisive and strong leadership decisions whenever I have met a very decisive moment, crisis moment. We have many such cases. I hope there should not be any misunderstanding on my leadership. My leadership style might have been different from my predecessors, but different circumstances, different times require a different leadership style. I have full respect for my predecessors, but as I have become the Secretary General of the United Nations, I have my own style, I have my own character. Therefore there should be due respect.
ANDREW MARR:
Right. So we're not going to see Mr Ban banging heads together and changing your style?
BAN KI-MOON:
You must have seen me meeting many world leaders, so-called very difficult people to deal with. I have been very firm, tough with them and I have made many such progresses in establishing peace and stability framework, as in Darfur, even though we are having some trouble now, as I have seen in the Myanmar case. I have met so many people so many places in the world.
ANDREW MARR:
What about Darfur? You mentioned Darfur just now. Again a certain amount of disappointment that the United Nations hasn't been stronger, hasn't pushed harder back at the ICC.
BAN KI-MOON:
We have been trying to resolve this Darfur situation through three tracks: peace protest, humanitarian process, as well as deploying United Nations and African Union peacekeeping operations. We have made considerable progress so far. Now this issue has been dictated by ICC a case arrest warrant against the President Bashir case, but my position is quite clear and I have been urging the Sudanese President that he should address both peace and justice issues in accordance with the Secret Council Resolution.
ANDREW MARR:
We've seen a lot of promises made in London and the G20's going to be meeting again relatively soon. What is the real priority? What needs to happen before the next G20 meeting? What do you want to see actually happen after this?
BAN KI-MOON:
These commitments made by G20 leaders must be translated into a concrete action. This is what we have committed. This is the real message that they wanted to send to the international community, creating jobs; and by sending strong sense of hope, we will do our best in close coordination. With this stimulus package, unprecedented stimulus package in the history of the world, I am quite confident that we will be able to overcome this economic crisis.
ANDREW MARR:
Secretary General, thank you very much indeed for joining us. Thanks a lot.
BAN KI-MOON:
Thank you very much, thank you.
INTERVIEW ENDS
Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.
NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.
Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy
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