'We all have to do better'

'We all have to do better'. Business Secretary John Hutton agrees with the critics: the government needs to set out a clearer vision.

John Hutton MP, Business Secretary

ANDREW MARR: Now then, as we've seen the party conference season is now underway, and for Labour, who are gathering in Manchester next weekend, the circumstances are hardly great: trailing in the polls, facing a recession.

And now with Labour MPs turning publicly against him, Gordon Brown has a fight on his hands.

He plans to help the housing market, encourage energy efficiency, but they don't seem to have added up quite to the great re-launch everyone was talking about, and a group of backbenchers is now calling for a "convincing, new narrative". Well what chance of that?

I'm joined by the Business and Enterprise Secretary, John Hutton. Welcome. Thank you for coming in...

JOHN HUTTON: Good morning.

ANDREW MARR: ... Mr Hutton. Let's start by talking about that call for a new direction - more clarity, more courage.

That was a Progress article. It was a magazine article. One of the signatories of that was your own Parliamentary Private Secretary, your effective bag carrier.

You, therefore, presumably agree with what he said?

JOHN HUTTON: Well, I'm not going to criticise any of my colleagues who want Labour to do better, and neither am I going to criticise those who say for example that we do need to set out a stronger vision of what we're doing.

ANDREW MARR: You do.

JOHN HUTTON: Of course we do. And that is what we have all been trying to do.

ANDREW MARR: So whose fault is it that you haven't done that yet?

JOHN HUTTON: Well, let me just come back to one, one point I want to make. I think it is difficult for us at the moment - there's no question at all about that. The economy has taken a turn in the wrong direction and it is getting difficult for families, for businesses.

So I think the focus of the government should be on doing those two things - helping families, helping more businesses - and that is what I am trying to do. And it is a difficult political climate for us, there's no question at all about that. So I think my colleagues are right to say that the government needs to do better. For heaven's sake, we're twenty percentage points behind in the opinion polls and that is a challenge to all of us in the Cabinet.

Not just to Gordon as Prime Minister, but to all of us to do better, to make our arguments more convincing and clearer, and that is what we are trying to do. And there's been a lot of discussion in the papers this morning, and I know you were talking to Jeff and Mariella earlier about the Energy Package, which I was involved in. And I know people will say well there should, should have been more cash help for families.

ANDREW MARR: Yes.

JOHN HUTTON: But I think what the government is trying to do, Andrew, is two things: we are trying to provide more cash help for families - so, for example, there's more for the winter fuel allowance.

And the energy companies, to their credit, are actually providing more help for low income households as well...

ANDREW MARR: Which... which they're going...

JOHN HUTTON: And then we've got to address this issue about energy efficiency...

ANDREW MARR: Yes.

JOHN HUTTON: ... because if we don't do that, we cannot make any sustainable difference in people's energy bills. So I think it is the right path. And of course people will say we want more. We will do what we can to help people in the here and now, but we've got to build this package for the long-term because the era of cheap energy is over.

We are all going to have to come to terms with higher energy prices in the years ahead. And that is why yes, fine, we may not have got you know three cheers for the package, but we got two cheers for the package, and I think that's actually quite a good position to be in.

ANDREW MARR: Well let's, let's stay with that package then because there were two things I think that people said about it that were critical. One is that although the energy companies are going to help with lagging and so on, they've also made it perfectly clear that they're going to pass the cost of that straight back to the consumer.

So this is a kind of privatised redistribution, if you like. The energy companies are going to be charging the majority more in order to help those people who need to lag more. So it's not actually... There's no help from the government.

JOHN HUTTON: Well, I mean I'm not sure the energy companies have said that in those terms, but I think we've made it clear and the Prime Minister has made it clear - and I absolutely agree with him on this - that there is no justification for passing on this particular set of costs directly onto consumers.

None... none at all in the current circumstances. I think the energy companies - again to their credit and they, they get very little credit because everyone wants to put the boot into them and I think quite wrongly - we'd all suffer much worse if we had a failing energy sector with loss making energy companies. We need energy companies to be successful to invest in the massive generation of new, clean tech energy we will need.

ANDREW MARR: Which is why it was from your point of view so important that Gordon Brown backed away from the windfall tax on them?

JOHN HUTTON: Well I think the government's got to, to balance this out. It's got to provide help in the here and now, which we are doing, but it's got to pave the way for this new generation of investment in the new power generation systems we need in the future - whether it's nuclear, green tech or renewables, coal and gas as well. We need to have that investment ready.

And you know it is a competitive environment out there. The energy companies can invest anywhere in the world they want to. My job is to make it attractive for them to invest here in the UK because that ultimately is to the long-term benefit of UK Plc. Energy is the fundamental commodity. It's the cornerstone of our prosperity as an economy, fairness in our society too because access to affordable energy is a fundamental sort of human entitlement.

So we are working with the energy companies. Our determination is not to do things that are going to disincentivise investment in the UK, but to try and provide more practical help in the short-term and build a proper sense of direction for how we are all going to have to come to terms with higher energy prices in the long-term. And that's, that was the package that we announced on Thursday and it's the right package for Britain, absolutely.

ANDREW MARR: With your business hat on, how worried are you about what happened to XL and the possibility of more and more airlines going under, and is there anything you can do to prevent the kind of chaotic scenes we - not you personally but the government can do - to prevent the kind of chaotic scenes we saw after the XL collapse?

JOHN HUTTON: Well first and foremost, I mean we have enormous sympathy with all of those holidaymakers caught up in the collapse of XL.

The insurance in... the travel industry has a mechanism to protect travellers when these types of things happen and obviously it's really important that those mechanisms work in the way that they were designed to, which is to provide help to get people home, to make sure that there is minimum disruption.

And if those arrangements don't work, of course government will have to talk to the industry about making sure that those...

ANDREW MARR: So you will be, yeah?

JOHN HUTTON: Well, it's essentially for Ruth Kelly to deal with that problem. But I think essentially we are all looking to make sure that those caught up in this tragedy are properly sorted out and that we, that the arrangements that are designed to protect travellers work as well as they can during the future too.

ANDREW MARR: Would you accept that we are probably already in recession?

JOHN HUTTON: No, I don't think there's any evidence for that. You know you need to see the evidence of two successive quarters of negative growth. We haven't got that. I think it's important to bear in mind, although there are clearly difficult times now facing the economy, there are parts for example of our manufacturing economy that are doing incredibly well at the moment.

I'm hoping to go to the West Country tomorrow to launch I think what will be a very significant package of investment in Aerospace. Aerospace has been a fantastic success story for the UK and its order books are full for the future. So I don't think you can be generic at this point about it. Clearly the situation is difficult and challenging.

ANDREW MARR: I mean obviously, as you know, the EU and the OECD and people think that that's what's happened - is that we are... you know we had stagnant growth in one quarter... JOHN HUTTON: Yuh.

ANDREW MARR: ... and that we're probably negative now. What about the, the predictions of 2 million unemployed?

JOHN HUTTON: No, again I think that's exaggerated.

ANDREW MARR: You think it's too pessimistic, do you?

JOHN HUTTON: I do think it's too pessimistic. I think you've got to be honest about the situation we're in. We know that the global economy has taken a turn for the worse and that's partly because of the credit crunch, it's partly because of the exponential increase in the costs of food and energy, and they are bound to have a negative impact. There is simply no way that you can absorb these sorts of costs in the increasingly globalised economy.

ANDREW MARR: So you thought... You thought, to be fair, that Alistair Darling was a little over the top in what he said, did you?

JOHN HUTTON: No, actually I think Alistair was right. I think we are facing perhaps the most challenging economic conditions that we've faced.

ANDREW MARR: For sixty years?

JOHN HUTTON: Yes, I think so.

ANDREW MARR: Really?

JOHN HUTTON: I think that is right. I mean, look, this is a globalised economy now, Andrew, and this is the first real financial shock and economic shock to this globalised economy, and I think it is right to prepare for that challenge in the way that Alistair is, is doing.

We've got to be realistic, we've got to be honest with people about the challenge that we face, and then set out the measures that can help the economy and individuals and families deal with that, and that is what we're doing. And often in politics, you know you don't get the credit for doing those things, but we...

ANDREW MARR: (laughs) Never get the credit for doing those things.

JOHN HUTTON: ... but we are absolutely doing the right things for the economy and for families in Britain today.

ANDREW MARR: A lot of stuff in the papers today about your party's trouble. Let me just read you a paragraph from the Sunday Telegraph. It says: 'Britain needs once more to hear and feel the smack of firm leadership. Those Labour MPs - and they include some members of the Cabinet - who are convinced that Mr Brown ought to go must now put up or shut up. Let's resolve the issue or stop the damaging whispering campaign.' Which side are you on?

JOHN HUTTON: Well I'm, I'm on the side of the government and the Prime Minister. I'm in the Cabinet. It's my job to support...

ANDREW MARR: So, so... So you would tell those people...

JOHN HUTTON: ... the work that the Prime Minister is doing and the work that the government is doing. And I...

ANDREW MARR: You think those people who've been popping up all over the place saying there should be a leadership campaign, you think they are wrong?

JOHN HUTTON: I don't think this is the time to have a leadership election, no. We've got this major economic challenge to face and it is absolutely right that every member of the Cabinet, every member of the government supports the Prime Minister in what he's doing - and I do.

ANDREW MARR: You see they look at people like you and they say we have to do this - it may be a bit chaotic, it may be a bit ragged, it may be a bit difficult - because the members of the Cabinet that we are looking to to go in and have a word with Gordon Brown or to say publicly what they think won't do it.

JOHN HUTTON: Look, the government's got to do better.

ANDREW MARR: Yeah.

JOHN HUTTON: It's got to do better at communicating its message. It's got the right policies, I am absolutely convinced about that.

ANDREW MARR: And the right leader?

JOHN HUTTON: It's got the right leader. We've chosen our leader. Now what we've got to do is support the Prime Minister. I am supporting the Prime Minister, we should all be supporting the Prime Minister today and in the weeks ahead because it is a hugely difficult job that he's got to do.

And I think you've got to be absolutely clear on these occasions that it is right and proper for there to be debate about the direction of the party. I've been in the Labour Party for 30 years. We've spent every year debating the future direction of the Labour Party...

ANDREW MARR: Yes, sure, sure.

JOHN HUTTON: ... and that's going to continue. And that's not a bad thing in politics.

ANDREW MARR: But you said, you said just now you must support the leader in the weeks ahead. He hasn't got forever, has he? I mean it cannot, cannot from your point of view as a party carry on like this.

JOHN HUTTON: We've got to support the Prime Minister. We've got to support the work of the government because what the government is trying to do is steer the right course for Britain in the future. We've heard a lot today from, from Nick Clegg and so on talking about fairness.

If you look at our political opponents - and I just want to make this point because I think it's very, very important - that we've got to aim our fire on the alternatives, not on ourselves. Nick Clegg is a sort of pale imitation of David Cameron and, at very best, David Cameron is a pale imitation of Tony Blair. There is nothing on offer from either of those two parties that is at all addressed to the reality of Britain today.

ANDREW MARR: So...

JOHN HUTTON: And that is why our job as supporters who wish the Labour government well, who want it to succeed, believe its values are right, to support the work of the government and the Prime Minister in getting that message and those policies across to the British people.

ANDREW MARR: But looking...

JOHN HUTTON: If you're in the government, that is the choice you make.

ANDREW MARR: Sure.

JOHN HUTTON: If you're not in the government, then you can make a different set of choices.

ANDREW MARR: Of course.

JOHN HUTTON: But in the government, your job is to support your leader and to support the government, and that is what I am doing.

ANDREW MARR: So what do you say to all of those people who say there has been a kind of collapse of self-belief in the Cabinet, in the core of government; everybody just feels a bit stunned, nobody quite knows what to do; there is drift? That's what they feel.

JOHN HUTTON: No, there isn't drift. And I think it is a difficult time for us, of course, but you know this is the testing time for politicians. You know when you're 20 points ahead in the polls, it's a different ballgame.

ANDREW MARR: Yeah, sure.

JOHN HUTTON: When you're 20 points behind, it's a time for resolve and resilience and support for one another in trying to take this project forward. It's a hugely important time for us.

ANDREW MARR: But you don't, you don't, you don't condemn these backbenchers who've spoken out. It takes some courage to do so and I don't imagine you would condemn David Miliband for standing up at the beginning of the summer and hammering out some home truths?

JOHN HUTTON: No, of course not. I think David did the right thing.

ANDREW MARR: You don't regard him in any sense as disloyal for saying that?

JOHN HUTTON: Not at all.

ANDREW MARR: No.

JOHN HUTTON: I think he said the right things. I think it is right that there is a debate within the Labour Party and the Parliamentary Party and the country. Look, everywhere I go - in my own constituency, elsewhere - people are saying, "Look, where are we going? What is happening to Britain?"

We've got to be able to answer those questions. That is what government ultimately is there to do. So it is right and proper in a democracy that there should be that debate within the Labour Movement, within the Labour Party at the moment about our future direction.

Of course there should be. And I, as I said at the beginning, I am absolutely not going to condemn any of my colleagues who want to have that debate and set out that agenda, but I think we've got to support the government and we've got to support the work that Gordon is doing because it is the right direction for Britain.

ANDREW MARR: It sounds, if I may say so, just a little lukewarm. I mean on a scale of 1 to 10, how likely, honestly, is it in your view that Gordon Brown is going to lead the Labour Party into the next election and win it?

JOHN HUTTON: I think he can do that and it's our job to, to support him in doing that.

ANDREW MARR: Likely though?

JOHN HUTTON: He can do that and we have made the choice of our leader. So I think... I know there are lots of people who want to have this debate - it's all over the papers today - but I think, as I keep saying, it's the job of members of the Cabinet, members of the government to support the Prime Minister in what he's doing.

And I do that because he is setting the right direction for Britain and we've got to support his agenda of fairness, of economic strength and recovery because that fundamentally is the right agenda for Britain and I have no hesitation in supporting that.

ANDREW MARR: Alright. John Hutton, for now thank you very much indeed for coming in.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

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