Breakthrough in Zimbabwe

Kenya's Prime Minister Raila Odinga confirms the opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai is 'ready and willing' to talk to Robert Mugabe.

Raila Odinga, Kenyan Prime Minister

ANDREW MARR: Well I spoke to Mr Odinga just before we came on air and he revealed some important fresh information about the situation in Zimbabwe.

But first I asked him about Kenya.

Just six months after the disputed elections there and the violent riots which followed how was he able to form a coalition with his former political enemies?

RAILA ODINGA: Supporters who were fighting against each other because of the disputed elections. But that has now passed us because as you know we signed a peace accord that ended the hostilities. And we then moved on to form a grand coalition government.

So over the last three months we have tried to bring our supporters together, reconcile our society to work as one. And that's the reason why we are now sending the message out there that Kenya is, was down but is now up and moving.

ANDREW MARR: Now some people have said that this bold experiment in bringing everybody into government together cancels out the result of an election, an election that in your view you had won and is therefore in some sense not democratic.

RAILA ODINGA: Well you know there were three elections in one - the civic, the parliamentary and the presidential. The dispute was really on the presidential election results where we ourselves felt that we were cheated by the Electoral Commission. So we agreed to set aside the presidential election results but to form this coalition government.

So that we can be able to introduce these fundamental reforms that the new constitution, a land reform, the economic reforms, so that the country does not again experience a similar situation that we witnessed earlier this year.

ANDREW MARR: Right. You've been one of the few African leaders to call clearly for Robert Mugabe to go. There are reports circulating now of some new deal being done between the MDC possibly and Zanu PF with Mr Mugabe perhaps moving to one side or exiting. Can you tell us do you know anything about what's going on there?

RAILA ODINGA: Well yes, 'cause I myself have said that Robert Mugabe is really an embarrassment to the African continent. But we are presented with a fait accompli. That is an incumbent who lost an election and refused to move on, then went on to do an election where he was the only candidate.

Now I have talked to Morgan Tsvangirai and we have, and told him that his need to negotiate, I'm told that the parities have now agreed a framework for negotiations which will be signed I'm told this coming week. And I'm encouraging this kind of dialogue in the interests of the people of Mugab... of Zimbabwe. I'm told that these talks are going to take place in Pretoria chaired by President Mbeki but supervised by the African Union and the United Nations representatives.

This is all that we've been calling for. And I see that if that does happen then there's a prospect for giving Mr Mugabe a safe exit, our view is that an arrangement should only be made that will give Mr Mugabe a safe exit from power.

ANDREW MARR: So in your view it would be essential that Mr Mugabe was no longer president after these talks were concluded?

RAILA ODINGA: My view is that he can be allowed to retain some kind of ceremonial position, ceremonial presidency as he prepares to exit the scene. But I don't think that it would be right to give Mr Mugabe executive powers. Because he doesn't deserve it. He lost an election. And the people of Zimbabwe surely have spoken through their, the ballot.

ANDREW MARR: And you've spoken to Mr Tsvangirai as you were saying. What's his mood about this? Is he optimistic?

RAILA ODINGA: Yes. I spoke to him last night. He was in Harare and he told me that his team will be going to Pretoria for these preliminary talks and depending on how they progress, he is then ready and wiling to meet with Mr Mugabe out there in Pretoria.

ANDREW MARR: Well that's, that's a big breakthrough clearly. This has been a terrible period for Africa's image around the world. How much damage to do you think that the terrible scenes in Zimbabwe have done to the reputation of Africa as a place which can run countries successfully, you know, decent record of democracy and self government?

RAILA ODINGA: I think that the experience here in Zimbabwe shows that the transition in Africa from a single party or military dictatorships to truly democrat systems of governance is going to be much longer. We have here the old leadership which is still trying to cling to power.

So I think one still needs to be optimistic that this is just one of those retrogressive developments, but on a larger scale you can say that the movement for change in Africa is surging forward. And that even in Zimbabwe it is just in a short time we are going to see real change.

ANDREW MARR: And when you discuss all of this with David Miliband and Gordon Brown and other ministers in London what will you be wanting them to do in this situation? Carry on pressing for further sanctions or sit back for a moment and watch the situation develop in Zimbabwe?

RAILA ODINGA: I am going to say that first I'm going to thank them for this time that they are taking along with other members of the international community in calling for sanctions against Zimbabwe.

Unfortunately it was not passed in the UN. But I'm going to insist that the world, the rest of the world must still continue with sanctions against Zimbabwe until a proper settlement is found. I think this itself will be a kind of incentive for Mr Mugabe to negotiate.

ANDREW MARR: Finally Mr Odinga could I ask you about one other issue which is that the international criminal court is seeking an arrest warrant for the President of Sudan, Mr al-Bashir, over the dreadful events in Darfur. The African Union has taken a pretty dim view of this. What's your view?

RAILA ODINGA: So many lives have been lost in Darfur. And I think that it is necessary for the African Union to be much more proactive on this issue, to lead the way, so that the rest of the international community basically just supports the initiative of the African Union. I think that basically to try to exonerate people here and there or to apportion blame is not going to resolve the issue of Darfur.

ANDREW MARR: Well prime minister good luck for your trip to London and thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning.

RAILA ODINGA: Thank you very, very much and I really look forward to coming to London to say that Kenya's up and kicking and ready for investment.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

Your comments

Disclaimer: The BBC may edit your comments and cannot guarantee that all emails will be published.

E-mail this to a friend

Printable version