Message for the troops

Numbers in Iraq will fall, but not until next year - says the Chief of the Defence Staff.

Sir Jock Stirrup, Chief of the Defence Staff

ANDREW MARR: Thank you for coming in Sir Jock.

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: Pleasure.

ANDREW MARR: Can I start by, by going back over the question as to whether the army is overstretched, four thousand or so still in Iraq.

The plans have been to come down to two thousand or thereabouts, two and a half thousand. Eight thousand I think there in Afghanistan now. Do we need a bigger army?

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: Well you mentioned that the remarks when I made them attracted some headlines which was a bit of a surprise since I've been saying the same thing for the last two years, including to the House of Commons Defence Committee in March 2007 and the Defence Secretary has said very similar things.

I mean this is no secret. We are structured and resourced for a certain level of commitment on an enduring basis. And we're doing more than that at the moment. It doesn't mean that we can't do what we're doing. But it means we can't keep on doing it indefinitely. So we do need to get ourselves back down to a more sustainable operational tempo as soon as we can. And subject to delivering success on current operations that has been and remains my top priority.

And we've made some progress in that regard. But just at the moment in Iraq we have some important parts of our mission to, to complete, particularly with regards to training, admitting the relatively new fourteenth division of the Iraqi army. And while I wouldn't want to put any timescales on it I would expect us to see further substantial progress towards more substantial, erm? more sustainable tempo in the course of the next year.

ANDREW MARR: So we would expect perhaps to go down by a couple of thousand troops in Basra during the, during this current year?

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: No over, during the course of next year.

ANDREW MARR: So into 2009.

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: Into two thousand and nine.

ANDREW MARR: That's quite a delay given where we thought we were going to be isn't it?

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: It is. But it's a, it's a delay that's caused by a number of factors, the principal one of which is that we trained the tenth division of the Iraqi army in Basra.

But then the Iraqis decided to move the tenth division out of Basra and form a new division, the fourteenth division. And we're now busy training and mentoring that one.

ANDREW MARR: So the army has to cope with overstretch for another year and a bit at least. Do you think, as was being said by Liam Fox in the papers today, we actually need a bigger army?

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: Well the question of the size of the armed forces as a whole - and it's, it's all of the armed forces that we have to focus on - is one that we keep regularly under review. There is of course a lot of attention paid to infantry battalions. And that's very understandable.

But to be perfectly frank with you, that's not the area where we're experiencing greatest stretch. It's in the key enablers, the key enablers that we require whatever force we deploy for each theatre and ..

ANDREW MARR: Just explain "key enablers".

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: Well key enablers such as, such as helicopters for example, such as the reconnaissance assets that are so crucial to operations. Engineers, signallers and people like this. The strategic transport. These are in great demand.

ANDREW MARR: Not enough of those at the moment?

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: The - sustaining two theatres at the level of which we are at the moment is a stretch on us. And we need to get back down to a sustainable tempo so that we reduce the stretch, not just on infantry battalions who are doing a fantastic job and who are very busy but all of those key enablers as well.

ANDREW MARR: Now what, what Doctor Fox was saying is that taking all of that into account we simply need a larger army.

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: Well the first thing we need to do is to man the army we have and ..

ANDREW MARR: You're five thousand or so below where you want to be?

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: We're, we're just over five thousand short across the armed forces. I would, I would point out that in each of the armed forces the level of under-manning today is actually less than it was ten years ago. So this is not a new problem. But we do have plans for manning each of the services.

They're going to take some time to put into effect and they encompass a range of measures. But the first thing to do is to get our manning for each of the armed services up to where it needs to be.

ANDREW MARR: Part of the problem clearly is how people in the army and the armed forces generally feel. There was, to, a lot of people were quite shocked by a survey, an official survey that the army carried out and twenty four thousand service people were interviewed.

Nearly half had low morale and were thinking regularly about getting out. That's a pretty shocking figure.

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: Well I could trade statistics with you all day. I could point out as I say that the under-manning today is less than it was ten years ago. I could point out, I could point out that the City and Guilds recent survey shows that, that job satisfaction and happiness at what they do is higher amongst the military than almost any other professional group within the United Kingdom.

But that would of course be to miss the point. And the point is what do these statistics we, what do we think they actually tell us. And as you said we defence commission these surveys precisely so we can answer that question. And I would, I would point out two things that I think are really significant. The first is that nearly half of our people feel that the pressure of operations and operational tempo makes them more inclined to leave. And therefore we need to deal with that.

And I've explained how we're are planning to deal with that. But the second point is that nearly two thirds of our people feel that the impact of service life on their families and on their personal life makes them more inclined to leave. And we have to deal with that. But those issues are not within the gift of defence or, or of the armed forces - very much to do with the disadvantage that our people tend to experience because of the mobility we expect from them and ..

ANDREW MARR: What more can you do? Because you've got a, you've got a, I think it's called a command paper coming out through parliament ...

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: The command, the, the command paper on service personnel is the way that we're tackling this because it has to be dealt with across government. And what I expect to see from that paper are the disadvantages that our people suffer in terms for example of access to NHS dentists, of retaining their place on NHS waiting lists, access to educational places for their children and so on to be dealt with.

I expect to see a firm plan for dealing with those and I expect to see a firm commitment to deliver. That's what I expect from the command paper and that's what I think we will see. And that tackles the issues that our own families tell us are the top of their concerns.

ANDREW MARR: What about things like pay and what about housing conditions? Because those have been the two other really big sources of irritation and worry.

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: Well as far as pay is concerned, um, you know our people are fantastic and they do incredible things. So if you ask me, you know, you can never pay them enough. And how do you measure the contribution that they make in monetary terms? You just can't do it. So, so no level of pay for me is ever going to be enough for them. But the critical point is that our salaries are determined by an independent pay review body and then the recommendations implemented by the government.

I'm one of the few people still serving old enough to remember the days before we had an armed forces pay review body. And let me tell you, it was not good. So the critical issue for me is retaining the independence of that pay review body and for the government to implement its recommendations in full each year as it has done in recent years. On housing, er, yeah, our accommodation is not where we would like it to be. This is the result of decades of under investment, decades.

And it's a massive problem. And remember we have in terms of single living accommodation alone over a hundred and sixty thousand bed spaces across sixteen countries. So getting those up to the standard that we need them to be is a long term endeavour and we're doing it. We're putting in billions of pounds over the next ten years. And each year we are delivering a greater number of improved bed spaces for our people. But of course that's not much consolation ..

ANDREW MARR: Sure.

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: .. if you're in one of those that has not yet been improved.

ANDREW MARR: Absolutely. And just one final point on pay, General Dannatt pointed out that the guys on the ground in Afghanistan, in Iraq, are in many cases getting less than a traffic warden. That can't be right can it?

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: Well, um, first of all, as well as their basic pay they're getting operational allowances ..

ANDREW MARR: ... but nonetheless ..

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: .. and all of those things. But, but the critical issue for me, as I said earlier, is to have an independent pay review body that looks at the salaries of our people, compares them across the public and private sectors, and comes up with a recommendation for them which they think is equitable. And it's that independence of the pay review body that is critical and that's what we have to sustain.

ANDREW MARR: I mentioned General Dannatt. Lots of stories over the last week or so suggesting that he might go early because he's not going to get your job because he's been too outspoken. He stood up for the army too vociferously and ministers are angry with him.

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: Well Richard Dannatt is a very dedicated soldier and a very good man and I expect to see him serve his time out.

ANDREW MARR: So he won't, you don't think he'll leave early?

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: I think he will do his duty as he always has done throughout his career.

ANDREW MARR: And do you endorse the things that he's been saying about the way the army's been treated?

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: Well I think that the important thing to recognise in terms of the military covenant is that the public has always appreciated its armed services. There's no doubt about that in my mind. And all the surveys show us that. But from time to time it could do with expressing that appreciation a bit more tangibly. And that's what we've been seeing over the last year or two. And I very much welcome that.

ANDREW MARR: The army's faced some pretty grim stories recently. A three million pound pay out to the family of an Iraqi man who was beaten and killed. Another story in today's paper about a sexual assault in Basra. Are we going to see, sort of flood gates opening to lots of legal challenges to the army and a great deal of your budget going on lawyers and going on pay outs?

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: Well I don't know what will happen in the future in terms of legal challenges. But I would make a couple of points. The first is that we have had tens and tens of thousands of military people going through operational theatres, operating in the most dangerous and most difficult and most stressful conditions. And virtually all of them have behaved impeccably.

That has not universally been the case. And when it is not the case we are first amongst those who want to see it dealt with. Because we cannot accept people failing to live up to the high standards that we set. I mean that's the first point. The second point is that with regard to one or two of the cases that you mentioned they are of course subject to ..

ANDREW MARR: Sure. We understand that.

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: .. a public enquiry, subject to proper police investigations. We need to see what they come up with.

ANDREW MARR: More tough news from Afghanistan the last few days again. We're going to be there for decades?

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: The international community, I think, if the enterprise is to be successful will need to be engaged for decades.

ANDREW MARR: But that means us?

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: As far as the ..

ANDREW MARR: 'Cause the rest aren't coming in are they?

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: Are but, but, but, but what I'm, what I'm talking about here is across the full spectrum of effect. I'm talking about in terms of reconstruction, governance, finance and the economy and all the rest of it.

ANDREW MARR: But ...

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: In terms of the military, in terms of the military we will be there for a few years. But the key for us is to develop the Afghan indigenous security forces, the Afghan National Army, to the stage where they can take on the lead for these responsibilities themselves. That's one of our key roles in Afghanistan and that's going well.

ANDREW MARR: Well the reason I press that is that every time we're told that the Taliban are on the run and we're really getting things under control they're back again killing even more people. I mean it wasn't, it's only a few months ago we've been told oh there's been no spring offensive from the Taliban. We seem to be in charge. And then the last few weeks have been bloody.

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: If you listen to what I say, I say that we tactically defeat the Taliban every time we engage them. Does that mean that they are defeated over all? No. Does it mean they will not come back at us hard from time to time? No.

ANDREW MARR: So on it goes.

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: Does it mean we won't suffer more tragic losses? No. I have always said that. I mean we, we cannot be distracted by the short term vagaries of, of tactical fortune.

ANDREW MARR: Do you know how and when we'll ever get out?

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: Yes I do. We will get out militarily when we have developed the Afghan indigenous security forces to the level where they can take on the responsibility themselves. And they will be able to do that.

ANDREW MARR: And in terms of who's going out to fight there, the stories about the Territorial Army, the TA, suggesting that people who have joined up because they like what they do at the weekends and they like wearing the uniform, are going to get a shock, because they are going to absolutely have to go out and fight and take, take their turn in these dangerous and difficult theatres.

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: I don't think we've got very many of the kind of people you describe any more if any. Because they've been doing that for years now. But they are an integral part of our force structure.

ANDREW MARR: But if you join the TA you're going to have to go out and fight in a, in Afghanistan or Iraq?

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: If you join the TA you're joining the military and you take on the responsibilities that the military assumes.

ANDREW MARR: All right. Sir Jock Stirrup thank you very much indeed for joining us.

SIR JOCK STIRRUP: Thank you.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

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