Force may be necessary

There's now a 'very good argument' for military intevention to restore peace in Zimbabwe, says Archbishop Desmond Tutu.

Archbishop Desmond Tutu

ANDREW MARR: Archbishop Desmond Tutu gently chided his old colleague Nelson Mandela for not wading into the row over Zimbabwe, and then Mandela celebrating his 90th birthday duly chastised Mugabe.

But the current South African president Thabo Mbeki has so far kept silent.

What role does Archbishop Tutu think South Africa should play? Now before we went on air I spoke to him from his home in Cape Town and asked how his country could turn the screws on Mugabe.

DESMOND TUTU: Well I think first of all it would have to be to prevent Mr. Mugabe and any of his cronies, especially the elite, from being able to leave the country, from being able to access any banking account that they might have outside the country in South Africa, and perhaps also to ground the national airline so that they are not able to leave.

ANDREW MARR: And do you think that when everyone gathers tonight at Sharm-el-Sheikh the other African union leaders should announce that they don't recognise Mugabe as president?

DESMOND TUTU: Oh absolutely, I think, I mean, that most of them have moved in that direction and if you were to have a unanimous voice saying quite clearly to Mr. Mugabe "you are unwelcome any longer, you are illegitimate, and we will not recognise your administration in any shape or form". I think that that would be a very, very powerful signal and would really be able to strengthen the hand of the international community, that they should be willing to consider, you know, invoking the doctrine of the responsibility to protect.

ANDREW MARR: You mention that international community there. Way back, lots of people from around the world used to boycott South African goods in a protest against the then apartheid regime. Should people be boycotting Zimbabwean goods now to protest about what's happening in that country now?

DESMOND TUTU: Yes, I should think, I mean, that that also ought to have happened some time ago really. I think people were a little reluctant, wanting to give Mr. Mbeki's efforts and quiet diplomacy a chance, and I think, I mean, many in the west were a little worried that they might be accused of a kind of new colonial approach.

But now with the unanimous vote at the Security Council their hand has been strengthened considerably. And so I would think we would have a new kind of unanimity which in a way echoes back to the kind of unanimity that we used to have in the fight against apartheid.

ANDREW MARR: So when do you hope a combination of African union and international pressure will actually get Zimbabe to... Robert Mugabe has said that he will talk to the opposition. Would it be acceptable for Mugabe to bring in elements of the opposition into his government and stay in power himself?

DESMOND TUTU: No, no I don't think anyone wants to see that kind of result. Almost everybody will say that any, any arrangement after today, after Friday's charade, that arrangement should be one in which Mr. Mugabe certainly does not feature any longer.

Everybody is looking to a settlement that will restore peace and order in Zimbabwe, allow the many refugees who are, for instance, in South Africa, to return to their homes, and to give Zimbabwe the chance to recover from one of the most horrendous episodes in their history.

ANDREW MARR: If the international pressure doesn't get rid of Mugabe, and the instability spreads to other countries including South Africa, should there ultimately be military intervention?

DESMOND TUTU: That crisis has to be resolved sooner rather than later and yes, I think, I mean, that a very good argument can be made for having an international force to restore peace.

ANDREW MARR: Under the auspices of the United Nations?

DESMOND TUTU: Yes, absolutely. I would think no one would take umbrage at all. We've already got, as I say, the unanimous vote in the Security Council, that augers very well, for the fact that I think we would see most countries wanting to cooperate and so a very quick resolution of that crisis would be important for everybody.

ANDREW MARR: So if there was an international force, and if it was spearheaded say by South Africa with the involvement of other African countries, would that draw some of the accusations about white colonial intervention again in the West interfering in the affairs of Africa?

DESMOND TUTU: Yes. Yes, I would hope I mean that people would see the flimsiness of any such argument. If the AU could do what it did in Togo very recently then I mean I can't see why, with a far more serious crisis, they would be too reluctant to want to intervene forcefully, if need be.

ANDREW MARR: Archbishop Tutu, thank you very; much indeed.

DESMOND TUTU: God bless you.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

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