Rocky times

Health Secretary Alan Johnson agrees the government has difficulties; but there's 'absolutely no appetite. to change leader.

Alan Johnson MP, Health Secretary

ANDREW MARR: Welcome Mr Johnson, are there are any circumstances at all under which you might lead the Labour Party into the next general election?

ALAN JOHNSON: None whatsoever.

ANDREW MARR: Absolutely none?

ALAN JOHNSON: Absolutely none. I don't know whether you remember, I didn't even manage to get Deputy Leader.

But look, the whole issue of the leadership is settled. And those who were saying at the time of Brent East - I was at Wembley watching Hull City. You've got a whole day here with me and John.

And it reminded me, cos that's in Brent, that we lost the Brent East bi-election with twenty five per cent swing. And there were people then saying the answer is a change of leader. That's not the answer.

There is absolutely no appetite, I believe, in the party to change the leader. Gordon Brown was the towering figure a year ago and is the towering figure in the Party now.

ANDREW MARR: There are pretty reliable sources talking about a hundred Labour MPs ready to mount a challenge.

ALAN JOHNSON: No. Well depends what your definition is of "pretty reliable". I've seen some of the stories today. I know the people that they're talking about and no. What's going to happen now is look you know, I won't trot out the briefing from Labour Party Headquarters ...

ANDREW MARR: Good.

ALAN JOHNSON: ... if you Andrew don't suggest that you know a Party losing a bi-election is anything unusual, governing party, and that it somehow predetermines what the next general election will be. You know that's not the case.

ANDREW MARR: There are, there are two years to go and all of that.

ALAN JOHNSON: Absolutely.

ANDREW MARR: But ...

ALAN JOHNSON: And we've seen enough you know from Orpington ...

ANDREW MARR: Okay.

ALAN JOHNSON: ... through to Brent.

ANDREW MARR: All right. I'll keep my part.

ALAN JOHNSON: So, okay. So the issue for us is we were very good at dealing with the good times. Indeed we created those good times.

We're going through some really rocky times at the moment. We've got an Opposition that's been reinvigorated.

We've never faced as formidable opponent as Cameron. How do we react to this situation and how do we, if you put the kind, if this was a film it would be Three Elections And A, And A Tax Change ...

ANDREW MARR: Funeral.

ALAN JOHNSON: How do we deal ...

ANDREW MARR: Sorry.

ALAN JOHNSON: ... the Tax Change was what I was thinking of. How do we actually deal with this issue and how do we come through this.

And you know I heard John earlier on. He's right when he says whoever was in power now would be treated, would be dealing with the problem of sub prime mortgages in America, the North, what materialised in Northern Rock.

Would be dealing with rising food prices around the world. Would be dealing with oil ...

ANDREW MARR: Sure.

ALAN JOHNSON: ... at a hundred and thirty five dollars a barrel. These are issues that would have happened. And nothing that a British leader and a British prime minister can do could have stopped that happening.

Now the question is how they deal with those issues and how we as a party help our leader deal with those issues.

ANDREW MARR: Now you may like Gordon Brown but people out there don't seem to like Gordon Brown. Can you completely dismiss those personal issues? We live in a, you know, media saturated age.

He's not somebody who is able to get, managing at the moment, to get his message or project himself in the way that modern leaders seem to need to.

ALAN JOHNSON: He's not lights, camera, action. I mean I think John's point was very good about whether you watch a pilot, or you're looking to see whether the pilot smiles a lot.

I have a faith in the British people, I really - I mean I think the message they were sending us at Crewe and Nantwich where we had a brilliant candidate was, was one that we have to listen to very closely. But I have a faith in the British people that when it comes to a general election they will look very closely at policies.

Yes of course there is in the television age and twenty four seven media, there is a focus on personalities. And there's been a long, long focus on personalities. But eventually it will come down to policies. And it will come down to who they feel has the strength and the solidity to lead the country through difficult times.

ANDREW MARR: But with so many clear signals that they don't feel that is the current prime minister, don't you have a duty as a Party to look towards the future. If things carry on as they are it'll be a, it'll be a, a slaughter for you. So you know just in the interests of the Party don't you have to have those conversations?

ALAN JOHNSON: No I think, I think that's a pretty cosmetic way of looking at politics. I'm not convinced incidentally that this is a dislike that� I mean Thatcher was never particularly loved. There's been leaders in the past who if you took the same kind of opinion poll and had the same kind of a me ... er, media focus on them, and goodness knows, no one's taken as much scrutiny and sometimes unfair scrutiny as Gordon.

You know does the public like them? They need to respect them and they need to feel that they have the strength and the courage to deal with this really, really imposing job. I mean this is a real ..., a more difficult job than it's ever been to be the prime minister. And I think Gordon has the strength, the courage, the ideas, to actually deal with those issues.

ANDREW MARR: The British public so far as polls and a sequence of elections are concerned are angry and disillusioned with you as a government. What are you going to change?

ALAN JOHNSON: Well I think if you look at what's been happening over the last few weeks, if you look at the deal that was done this week, the Social Partnership Agreement, to deal with a major problem of exploitation of agency workers which affects a lot of people's lives.

If you look at the Human Fertilisation Embryology Bill which cleared some of its major hurdles, a good bill doing good things that affects people's lives. I think we have to carry on doing that. We have to deal with these issues of people's concerns about the economy.

And we have to ensure that people do feel, whether it's house prices, whether it's the prices of fuel at the pumps, whether it's issues around food prices, that we set out the� er, the ideas and the ambitions to deal with that and the policies to deal with that.

ANDREW MARR: Don't you have to do a little bit less thinking about the long term and a lot more thinking about the immediate.

ALAN JOHNSON: Well maybe you're right. Maybe you're right. But the long term's important. I mean if you think about pensions for instance, we will be restoring the link between state pensions and earnings.

We've got the, the, a long term solution for pensions. On energy, on climate change, long term solutions. You're probably right, that we need to focus perhaps on four or five issues that need to be tackled in the, in the near and mid term rather than the long term.

ANDREW MARR: And what, what might they be?

ALAN JOHNSON: Well I think they are issues incidentally about, about ...

ANDREW MARR: Forty two days still a problem?

ALAN JOHNSON: ... people. Well you see there you have a - these are difficult decisions to make. And I think we're making the right decisions on this, because we have to protect this country ...

ANDREW MARR: Okay.

ALAN JOHNSON: ... against international terrorism.

ANDREW MARR: So what other things ...

ALAN JOHNSON: So it's not an easy thing to do.

ANDREW MARR: Okay. Sure.

ALAN JOHNSON: And people telling Gordon well you know just drop it and it'll be okay. He's got a responsibility to deal with this.

ANDREW MARR: What about the Post Offices? You're an old postie. What about that?

ALAN JOHNSON: Well there again, it's a difficult decision. Who is supporting what we're doing with the Post Office?

The National Federation of Sub Postmasters. The people who represent the sub postmasters themselves. Because they recognise ...

ANDREW MARR: But not their customers. That's the problem.

ALAN JOHNSON: Well because they recognise that whereas twenty years ago you know the Post Office was the only place to go to post a parcel, buy a stamp and get your pension. That's changed.

And it's changed dramatically. And if all the people who said the Post Office was a wonderful institution actually went and used it we wouldn't have this issue. But the ...

ANDREW MARR: Okay.

ALAN JOHNSON: ... but the sub postmasters recognise that fewer post offices mean they can all make a reasonable living and there's ...

ANDREW MARR: Right.

ALAN JOHNSON: ... still a ubiquitous network. But it's a difficult issue and governments have to deal with them.

ANDREW MARR: If you, if you believe what people are saying in the newspapers, the person that the Conservative Party fears at the moment is you because they see you as a southern working class politician ...

ALAN JOHNSON: [sighs] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ANDREW MARR: ... with a story to tell. If you are not under any circumstances prepared to talk about the leadership or stand for the leadership, what if Gordon Brown phoned you up and said actually I need, I'd like to bring you in as number two to help sell this, this project?

ALAN JOHNSON: I, err� err� - no. I'd say no. But it's never going to happen.

ANDREW MARR: You'd, you'd say no?

ALAN JOHNSON: It's not going to happen. Yeah [sighs] Look I just think we, I'm Secretary of State for Health. And you know, um, what I'm doing in health I think is extremely important. And if you look at what we plan to do ...

ANDREW MARR: And you don't believe that David Miliband's manoeuvring either or ...?

ALAN JOHNSON: I, I've - look, I know David very well and you know I absolute ..., I'm absolutely certain he's not manoeuvring.

ANDREW MARR: Okay.

ALAN JOHNSON: And I know him better than any of the journalists that have written ...

ANDREW MARR: All right.

ALAN JOHNSON: ... about him this morning.

ANDREW MARR: OK. Let's, let's turn to, to your day job as it were. Health. A lot of concern, a lot of comment last week about the Scottish decision on for instance smoking. Because preventative health is, seems to be very much in ...

ALAN JOHNSON: Yeah.

ANDREW MARR: ... the air at the moment. And the Scots have decided that they're not going to allow cigarettes to be sold openly any more. They're going to be hidden away ...

ALAN JOHNSON: Yeah.

ANDREW MARR: ... under the counter like sort of old style dirty magazines or something. What's your reaction to that?

ALAN JOHNSON: I think they're right to do that and indeed ...

ANDREW MARR: Do you?

ALAN JOHNSON: ... we're considering that as well. And we'll launch a consultation document on that next week. Yeah, I think this is right because younger people are more influenced by advertising number one. If you start smo .... I mean smoking's gone down twenty two per cent of the population now, a further two per cent reduction.

Two hundred thousand kids under sixteen start smoking every year. And actually their chances of a premature death from smoking are three times higher than if they'd started smoking in their twenties. So put those two things together. Vending machines, banning vending machines where you can't have any control over the age of the person who's buying it. Happened in ...

ANDREW MARR: Yeah.

ALAN JOHNSON: ... many other European countries a long time ago. Startling results there. Um ... the ability to buy ten cigarettes. I mean I have to confess I started smoking very young, when I was a kid, and you could get ten Woodbines you know.

And you could get threepenny singles. Well they've taken threepenny singles away. Whether you should still be able to buy ten cigarettes or whether you should insist that you can only buy twenty, that's an issue we need to look at very closely. So ....

ANDREW MARR: You think actually you should go for, you should ...

ALAN JOHNSON: Should go for twenties because ...

ANDREW MARR: Yes.

ALAN JOHNSON: ... you know ...

ANDREW MARR: It's more expensive.

ALAN JOHNSON: ... it's more expensive and it's, it's the affordability argument.

ANDREW MARR: What about booze?

ALAN JOHNSON: Well we've got a very important piece of research being done by Sheffield University on pricing and promotion. We have to have evidence based policy on this.

And they will be presiding, err, providing the evidence on promotions and advertising as to whether we need to introduce regulation. We're doing a lot with the industry and with retailers at the moment.

ANDREW MARR: So, so when people say the problem of incredibly cheap, high strength lagers and vodkas and so on in supermarkets is, is a big social problem.

ALAN JOHNSON: Yeah.

ANDREW MARR: The statistics about the number of people drinking too much, particularly kids are pretty horrible.

ALAN JOHNSON: Well the statistics are.

ANDREW MARR: You agree with that.

ALAN JOHNSON: But fewer younger people are drinking. But those that are drinking are drinking more. And the binge drinking which in effect means you go out with the purpose of getting drunk which is not something that youngsters in other European countries by and large, although it's changing, do.

The statistics suggest that we need to look at this. The instinctive reaction I think of you, plus me, is that if you're selling lager at less than you know mineral water then, then there's, that's, that's wrong.

ANDREW MARR: Something's wrong.

ALAN JOHNSON: But we need the evidence ...

ANDREW MARR: Okay.

ALAN JOHNSON: ... which is why this Sheffield University study is very important.

ANDREW MARR: One, just one other health issue if I may. Poly Clinics which is grouping family doctors and specialists together. Your policy. Conservatives and others are saying it does mean the end of seventeen hundred individual GPs' outfits and that will actually reduce choice for an awful lot of people in this country.

ALAN JOHNSON: Absolute rubbish. The Tories couldn't even spell Poly Clinics. They spelt it P O double L Y in their press release.

We're not, it's not a national network for health services for parrots. No, look, and it's not our national policy. In London, a review of London said they had specific problems in London. Fifty four per cent of GPs single handed compared to forty per cent in the rest of the country.

Only three per cent of the public accessing services at their local community health centre compared to ten per cent in the rest of the country. A&E flooded with people seeking primary caring. There's been forty years of reports into London that have done nothing. This report into London says here's the solution and Poly Clinics is part of that London based solution, developed by London ....

ANDREW MARR: So it's not going to be imposed anywhere else.

ALAN JOHNSON: Nation wide we're saying to every ...

ANDREW MARR: Okay.

ALAN JOHNSON: ... single region you decide where you want to go, bottom up. Ara Darzi's leading this, my ministerial colleague.

But with two thousand seven hundred clinicians working bottom up involving sixty seven thousand people in the NHS, you know we're not looking at structural change any more.

We parked that. And we're saying how can we make the world, the NHS world class in every respect, rather than world class in some. And you know there's no national directive "You must have poly clinics".

ANDREW MARR: Okay.

ALAN JOHNSON: And incidentally this is greater capacity.

ANDREW MARR: Okay.

ALAN JOHNSON: It's not removing capacity. So this is in addition to the GP services that are there at the moment.

ANDREW MARR: Okay. What you said earlier on, extremely loyal to Gordon Brown. A lot of people would say modest to a fault about yourself.

ALAN JOHNSON: But� no, I think he's the best person to do the job.

ANDREW MARR: But can you, do you really not accept, looking at the situation, that your Party is heading out of government ...

ALAN JOHNSON: No.

ANDREW MARR: ... almost come what may now?

ALAN JOHNSON: No. I don't accept that whatsoever. And indeed you know falling into despair is sometimes a c .... comfortable option.

That's not where we are at the moment. If you look at all the statistics around here, I do not think that the public have made a decision that they'll go for Cameron, that this is a positive yes for Cameron.

This is hitting us at Crewe because the Tories were the second party. It's hitting us in London because there was a credible candidate for the Tories, Boris Johnson. And it was hitting us at the local elections wherever they thought their vote could send a message to us.

Now, if we listen to that message over the next two years, given the foundations that we've got to build on, given Gordon's enormous strength - and I do believe he is a strong person for a very difficult role - we can turn this around. We really can. There's an historical precedence ...

ANDREW MARR: Right.

ALAN JOHNSON: ... for this. And I'm confident that we can do it.

ANDREW MARR: Alan Johnson for now thank you very much indeed.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

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