Labour's 'secret' loans

It is 'inconceivable' that Gordon Brown didn't know about them, says former fundraiser Lord Levy.

Lord Levy, former Labour fundraiser

ANDREW MARR: You were smiling at the end there but your book begins on a particular summer day in Oxford when as you put it your life fell to pieces.

LORD LEVY: I think I was smiling at Alvin Stardust, remembering My Coo Ca Choo. It did. I'd had a wonderful day.

It was my birthday. I was with my wife Gilda and my daughter Juliet and partner Phil. And Gilda's aunt was over from America, a lady in her early eighties, a wonderful lady. And we'd had lunch.

We'd taken her all around Oxford. Was very relaxed. Got back to Juliet's, Left her there to return home.

And there were lots of messages on my mobile which had been switched off. And I turn it on to get the messages.

And one of them was from Neil O'May who was the solicitor I'd been to see when ..

ANDREW MARR: All this started.

LORD LEVY: .. all this started. And Neil sounded very, very down. And he said "Michael, I'm sorry to tell you, I've had a call from the police. You're going to be arrested". And I, I was almost speechless. I was shaking. I just said "Neil what do you mean? Why is this?"

And he said "Well I don't know but that's what's happening". And I said "Look I'm in Oxford. What does this mean?" I just didn't understand what it meant. And I, I was literally trembling with shock and I just didn't know what this meant.

ANDREW MARR: Did you ever think that you might go to prison?

LORD LEVY: No. I never did. My lawyers at all times Andrew said to me "Michael that will never happen" and I trusted my lawyers implicitly. And they said "Michael that just could not happen".

ANDREW MARR: Let's go back to much earlier when you first started to raise money for the Labour Party. Tony Blair still the Opposition leader. And you were clearly absolutely entranced by him as so many people were.

LORD LEVY: He is a very charismatic man. I met him at a dinner party. At that stage one really didn't anticipate he would be leader. John Smith was the leader of the Party. Everyone felt that after John Smith the heir apparent was Gordon Brown. He was a front bench shadow spokesman.

I thought really nice guy. We'd get to know each other. And John Smith then suddenly tragically died and Tony took over as leader. And he was very charming and people were charmed by him. People that met him, people I introduced to him, they were won over by him.

ANDREW MARR: How did you actually go about tapping up people for money? Physically, what happens?

LORD LEVY: Well would you like you to be the candidate Andrew or ..?

ANDREW MARR: How, how, yes how did you, you approach somebody?

LORD LEVY: Well, well firstly I'd been doing fundraising for charity ..

ANDREW MARR: Yeah.

LORD LEVY: .. since my twenties. So I'd been doing fundraising for many, many years. And I think the first thing is to really get to know somebody. And a lot of the people I already knew.

And in the charity world one would you know speak to them and say "Look I really believe in this cause". You'd know something about the person you were going to see and you were going to speak to, your potential ... as it were.

ANDREW MARR: You knew they had a bit in the bank?

LORD LEVY: You knew they had something in the bank. You tried to find out their financial position. You would try and find out what turned them on, what charities they'd supported before.

And in politics, had they supported a political party before. And you would sit and talk to them. And if it were a charity, look this is what I'm doing. Come and see the charity. Come and see the work that goes on. And you know people feel good about giving. The question is ..

ANDREW MARR: But ..

LORD LEVY: .. the key to turn them on to actually write out that cheque and ...

ANDREW MARR: And the same for politicians which is different.

LORD LEVY: Politics was very, very different. Politics was very, very different.

ANDREW MARR: Did you have to put them side by side with Tony Blair around the table ..

LORD LEVY: Certainly ..

ANDREW MARR: .. all of that kind of stuff?

LORD LEVY: .. certainly one would say to them "Look, why don't you meet with Tony Blair?

We're not going to talk about money when you're with him but why don't you meet him? Why don't you talk to him about what you feel about politics. Listen to him. See if this is what you would like to do.

ANDREW MARR: So ..

LORD LEVY: .. see if he's someone you would like to support".

ANDREW MARR: So right from the start what they were getting in return for any money was a sort of sense of access and a sense of being close to people who were in power.

LORD LEVY: Well I wouldn't call it an access. They wouldn't be able to phone up and say "Hey Tony, can we come and see you next week? Can we come and see you any time?"

ANDREW MARR: But proximity?

LORD LEVY: It wasn't that at all.

ANDREW MARR: Proximity.

LORD LEVY: They would certainly be able to have a dinner at my home, meet him at a dinner party. And to people they're, when a leader in opposition, they're meeting with them, and then a prime minister, it certainly is a feeling "well we've met the leader, we've spoken to them.

This is someone we believe we can support. We believe in his ideals and what he wants to do with the Labour Party."

ANDREW MARR: Did you ever offer them anything else?

LORD LEVY: Never.

ANDREW MARR: Any of them?

LORD LEVY: Absolutely never.

ANDREW MARR: You never said they're might be a knighthood in it or a peerage in it to any of them?

LORD LEVY: Absolutely never. But you know people have aspirations in life and ..

ANDREW MARR: Well this is the core of it ...

LORD LEVY: .. but I've never ever offered anybody anything Andrew.

ANDREW MARR: And this is the core of it because in a sense you didn't need to. They just needed to look in the history books, look at what had happened to other people who'd given money and draw the obvious conclusions.

LORD LEVY: That was conclusions for them to draw. And if they did that was them drawing those conclusions. And they weren't very difficult conclusions to draw. Cos if you look historically when people have supported charity, going back long before I was born ..

ANDREW MARR: Yeah.

LORD LEVY: .. people who supported charity, gave very substantial amounts to charity, people who were very supportive of political parties, they would, perhaps ..

ANDREW MARR: They knew where they were going to end up a lot of them.

LORD LEVY: .. they could perhaps get some form of recognition.

ANDREW MARR: But there was ...

LORD LEVY: It certainly wasn't guaranteed and it wasn't absolutely a certainty. But they obviously could have thought there was a potential ..

ANDREW MARR: Sure.

LORD LEVY: .. for that to happen.

ANDREW MARR: But there was this conversation wasn't there about P's and K's - peerages and knighthoods?

LORD LEVY: Who are you referring to?

ANDREW MARR: The Christopher Evans conversation with ..

LORD LEVY: Oh Christopher. Well Christopher, a great guy. Very outward going. Very flamboyant. As far as his K was concerned, absolutely didn't even know about it till it was in the media. You know nothing to do with me whatsoever. And as far as a peerage was concerned he knew the hierarchy of the Labour Party, actually many of them, long before I did.

He'd been around the party and apparently he'd said himself that many of them had said to him Christopher you know I really think you would be someone who could really make a contribution to political life in this country. He was leading the field in his b... in biotechnology. And he said quite publicly, and wrote to his shareholders "Levy didn't offer me anything". And that is a fact. I didn't do so.

ANDREW MARR: I suppose people focused on you partly because you were, you were doing the fundraising. You were the main fundraiser for most of the time.

But also you were so close to Tony Blair. I mean I hadn't realised until I read your book I mean how often you were together with him playing tennis weekend after weekend, in your house and then in Chequers.

LORD LEVY: Right.

ANDREW MARR: You were very close. So you were suggesting names to him. That's why people focused on you.

LORD LEVY: Well firstly was I close to Tony? Over a period of years yes we did spend a lot of time together.

ANDREW MARR: Yes.

LORD LEVY: He was at our, our home, certainly before he was prime minister. After he was prime minister down at Chequers. It was a time when we did spend a lot of time together.

ANDREW MARR: And he did ask you about potential peers.

LORD LEVY: In terms of, in terms of, in terms of suggestions or names there are many, many people that are asked their opinion.

I was one of I don't know how many but I was always aware because people would say "Oh I know so and so was asked about so and so".

I was never involved, as I've described fully in the book Andrew in the process that took place at number ten. I never attended a meeting where these things were discussed ever.

ANDREW MARR: You were allowed to put names in though weren't you and you did?

LORD LEVY: Anyone can. You can.

ANDREW MARR: And you did.

LORD LEVY: Anyone can. You can. Anyone can make a suggestion of a name. And over the years I'd made suggestions of people who had absolutely nothing to do with donating to the Party, people that I had come across and I said you know ..

ANDREW MARR: Just a good person.

LORD LEVY: .. have a look at so and so. I think they're a good per... My thing was have a look at them. You make, you know you look at their ..

ANDREW MARR: Sure.

LORD LEVY: .. track record. You see what you feel about this person.

ANDREW MARR: It just seems to me that the law is a little bit odd. If you say to me "Give me ten thousand pounds and I'll get you a knighthood" that is corrupt and you can go to prison for it.

If you say to me "Andrew you might like to donate ten thousand pounds to the Labour Party" and I think ah ha I know what's ... you know I'm hoping that in due course my fine services will be recognised by the prime minister and along comes a knighthood, that is completely fine.

Slightly strange distinction to make between - and that was what was at the heart of this wasn't it? That was, that's the distinction that was at the heart of the case.

LORD LEVY: Let's put it, well let's put it to you like this Andrew. Number one if I came to you and said "Andrew give ten thousand to the Labour Party" I would be doing that with you and with many other people.

If I thought you were someone who supported the Labour Party, who was able to make a donation and I thought you would want to then you like many others would be asked can you support a political party. The assessment when it comes to any form of recognition is to do with everything else you have done and achieved ..

ANDREW MARR: Right.

LORD LEVY: .. in your life.

ANDREW MARR: So they might say ..

LORD LEVY: And that is absolutely not in my domain.

ANDREW MARR: Sure.

LORD LEVY: It was really nothing ..

ANDREW MARR: Okay.

LORD LEVY: .. to do with me whatsoever.

ANDREW MARR: The distinction between the loans and gifts that people were focusing on was because if I gave a loan to the Labour Party that wouldn't have to be declared anywhere.

And then maybe the allegation was I would get my peerage or my knighthood. And then much later on I would repay the - the loan would be repaid and then it would be, or it would be turned into a gift and then it would become clear.

LORD LEVY: Okay.

ANDREW MARR: And you described yourself this is a loophole.

LORD LEVY: I did. And perhaps let's look at the history of the loans. The 2000 Act came into being. And political parties then had to continue their fundraising. Pre '97 Labour had actually declared the name of every donor who'd given over five thousand pound - not the specific amount.

The other political parties did not do that. We roll the time forward to the 2000 Act and thereafter every party had to declare the name of every donor over five thousand pounds. But not just the name, also the amount.

ANDREW MARR: Right.

LORD LEVY: Now the Tories started to take loans. So roll the clock forward again to 2005. The Tory coffers are full.

They've got nearly thirty million pounds in loans and Labour suddenly were scratching their head - "boy, how are we going to fund ..

ANDREW MARR: Yes.

LORD LEVY: .. this election? It is very difficult raising money. Donations were coming in ..

ANDREW MARR: I ...

LORD LEVY: .. and moneys were coming in. And then the leader of the Party decided - and he's the only one that could - that the Party could take loans.

ANDREW MARR: So Tony Blair takes the decision?

LORD LEVY: Now no one, no one had said ..

ANDREW MARR: Tony Blair took that decision.

LORD LEVY: .. that, no one had said that loans were illegal cos if they were illegal ..

ANDREW MARR: Sure. Sure. No I understand that.

LORD LEVY: .. how had the Tories been taking them for all the years.

ANDREW MARR: But Tony Blair took that decision. He was the guy.

LORD LEVY: He was the, he was the leader of the Party.

ANDREW MARR: And he took that decision. Did you ever encourage people to give loans rather than gifts?

LORD LEVY: Absolutely not. As far as I was concerned ..

ANDREW MARR: And did ... that's what Chai Patel suggested.

LORD LEVY: .. loans - well Chai Patel has got it wrong.

ANDREW MARR: And ...

LORD LEVY: That's not what happened. You know there were twelve lenders.

Very strangely only two had said that. And when the list of, and when the list of the lenders were declared and the Labour Party declared them, cos before the Tories did no one said: "Oh well actually yes I did give a loan but I didn't really want to do that."

ANDREW MARR: No.

LORD LEVY: People's names were on that list of twelve lenders. They, they ..

ANDREW MARR: It's just that both, both ..

LORD LEVY: .. put their names willingly ..

ANDREW MARR: .. Chai Patel and ..

LORD LEVY: .. on that list. And no one had said a word at that time.

ANDREW MARR: It's just that Chai Patel and Gulam Noon said that that was what happened. Are they both wrong?

LORD LEVY: Well, well you've got twelve lenders. None of the others said that. When the list of the twelve lenders were made public they didn't make a comment "well you know I really didn't make a loan .."

ANDREW MARR: Gor...

LORD LEVY: .. that's not case. They were, yes.

ANDREW MARR: Gordon Brown says he absolutely knew nothing about any of this. Do you believe him?

LORD LEVY: Well I don't, I don't really think it's question of belief, Andrew.

ANDREW MARR: Well it's a fairly straightforward question.

LORD LEVY: I'm saying, I'm saying to you the following ..

ANDREW MARR: You don't believe him do you?

LORD LEVY: I'm saying to you the following. I would find it very strange that the person who is leading the election campaign for Labour, that is Gordon, who has to fight the election, who has to fund the election, know where the monies are coming from because the Party is spending considerable sums of money, surely you're going to ask: "Well how is this being funded? Are we bringing in the money on donations?"

ANDREW MARR: So he must have known.

LORD LEVY: The returns to the Electoral Commission are showing quite clearly where all the donations are coming from.

I never met Gordon once during that time. But if you were the leader and Gordon was leading the campaign surely you would be sitting discussing what was going on.

ANDREW MARR: So ..

LORD LEVY: I never went to an NEC meeting. I had ..

ANDREW MARR: You view, but your view is that he must have ..

LORD LEVY: .. I had, I had nothing to do with the governance of the party.

ANDREW MARR: You view is he must have known?

LORD LEVY: My view is I would be very surprised - and as I think I said in the book, I had said in the book, it would be inconceivable that he really didn't know what was going on.

ANDREW MARR: Yes which is what he told parliament he didn't know. And Jack Dromey who as Treasurer said I didn't know either. You think he was working with Gordon Brown on this?

LORD LEVY: I turn to you and I say "You're the Treasurer". A charity. A business. A political party. This money did not go into some separate bank account as I've said in my book. This money went into the Labour Party ..

ANDREW MARR: Yes.

LORD LEVY: .. bank account. Now as a treasurer of a party you have access as his predecessors did to everything that goes on. You would know, you had access to the books. You would see regular figures.

ANDREW MARR: Okay.

LORD LEVY: You would see monthly cash flows.

ANDREW MARR: Right.

LORD LEVY: Now a treasurer doing their job surely would know exactly what is going on.

ANDREW MARR: Okay. This is a rotten way to fund politics isn't it?

LORD LEVY: I, before this whole episode, so called 'cash for peerages' broke, I had said that I felt the whole funding of political parties had to change. That one couldn't carry on funding political parties in this way.

ANDREW MARR: Yeah.

LORD LEVY: I didn't think it was right. And it had to change. And I, and I felt that you had to have a limit on what anyone could give and there had to be more state funding. There is already state funding for political parties.

ANDREW MARR: And how do you feel about all those people who were happy to take the money and then dumped on you?

LORD LEVY: Well I've tried to describe that in the book. But you know I don't want ..

ANDREW MARR: You said honestly that you are quite bitter about it.

LORD LEVY: I know I don't want to feel bitter. I really don't want to feel bitter. I want to carry on with my life, face many challenges ..

ANDREW MARR: Did Tony Blair treat you fairly?

LORD LEVY: .. and I want to do and I don't want to feel bitter.

ANDREW MARR: Did Tony Blair treat you fairly?

LORD LEVY: I would like to look at the period when I was with him and say "hey there were good times and there were some bad times." I don't want to really bad mouth either Tony or Gordon.

I wanted to express what I felt happened during that period in an honest and hopefully fair way. And without there being any bitterness.

ANDREW MARR: Lord Levy, thank you very much for joining us.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

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