China must play by the rules

Nick Clegg says Gordon Brown should not accept the Olympic flame.

Nick Clegg MP, Lib Dem leader

ANDREW MARR: Welcome.

NICK CLEGG: Morning.

ANDREW MARR: We were listening to Mr Rudd there who is off to China and is rather of the softly, softly diplomatic attitude when it comes to Tibet.

Gordon Brown is going to be accepting the torch later on today.

What do you make of that?

NICK CLEGG: I think that's a mistake. I think that we need to be quite clear, without being shrill about it but nonetheless uncompromising with the Chinese that if they are to become the full members of the international community that they want and the Olympics after all is a crowning symbol for the Chinese, of their acceptance by the international community, they have to play by the rules.

And the cornerstone of those international rules is that we all respect those fundamental human rights to which we, the British, have always attached a great deal of significance. And that's why I think it is wholly inappropriate that Gordon Brown is participating in this torch bearing ceremony today.

And I think it would be wrong for him to go to the opening ceremony on August, August the eighth unless the Chinese government were to show some real steps to have some talks with the Dalai Lama, allow journalists into Tibet, bring their full influence to bear in Darfur. And for instance ratify the international covenant on political and civil rights which they signed ten years ago but have still not ratified.

ANDREW MARR: But isn't it a bit shallow simply to boycott bits of the celebrations and yet go along and participate in the Games?

NICK CLEGG: No I'm very clear that I don't think there should be a full sporting boycott. Indeed the Dalai Lama himself doesn't think there should be. But one shouldn't be naive. Of course there is politics in this. One can't isolate it completely from politics.

And one certainly can't just brush over the fact that human rights are being systematically abused on an extraordinary scale in China and indeed in countries where China has a significant influence. Now I used to, I used to actually negotiate with Chinese officials for a long time before I, in a career before I went into politics.

And they're very sensitive to these kind of things. And that's why I think a calibrated approach which says look we're not going to enter into these ceremonial duties unless you take some steps in the right direction is exactly the kind of leverage which can and must work.

ANDREW MARR: Let's turn to your own party. There's an extraordinary story in the Independent On Sunday today which I'm sure you've seen which says that in the election between yourself and Chris Huhne actually what happened was a whole lot of postal votes didn't make it in time because of the Christmas post. And had they done he'd have been the leader not you.

NICK CLEGG: My understanding is a complete nonsense. I don't think anyone's ever counted those postal votes. So I think it's just another Sunday ...

ANDREW MARR: So it wasn't Christmas coming early for you?

NICK CLEGG: I don't think so. And I, I can't comment on a piece which I think is based on no, no foundation or fact whatsoever.

ANDREW MARR: Right okay. So you're confident that you were elected fairly and squarely?

NICK CLEGG: I certainly am. I certainly am.

ANDREW MARR: Okay. You also said at the time of that leadership contest that you thought Westminster was becoming a little bit of a kind of a theatrical dog house or some expression like this. And it might be said that your own interview recently for GQ magazine hasn't helped.

You did talk about the number of sexual partners you've had. But you didn't, you won't talk about your drug use. Now a lot of people will say hold on a minute. One, whatever you think about it is entirely legal and the other one isn't. And actually the thing that's illegal is what politicians ought to be able to talk about and be honest about.

NICK CLEGG: Well I probably should be consistent on both and, and be private on both.

ANDREW MARR: Oh good. Oh good.

NICK CLEGG: I mean - no and not comment any further.

ANDREW MARR: I see.

NICK CLEGG: Look in this mod... modern media environment you, you enter, as a political leader you enter into these split second conversations and interviews. They then get interpreted and reinterpreted and over interpreted afterwards. It's not comfortable, it's not nice. But I don't think I'm going to add to it by, by second guessing it now.

ANDREW MARR: Do you regret what you said?

NICK CLEGG: No I'm not, look I'm not going to start with the benefit of hindsight, start reinventing what did or didn't happen. Frankly if I have any regrets it's that I don't want it to be a distraction from the kind of things I do care passionately about whether it's human rights ..

ANDREW MARR: So a lesson learned? A lesson learned?

NICK CLEGG: You just move on. You just move on.

ANDREW MARR: I'm just sort of, you know in the context of wanting a more candid sort of political conversation you say you ..

NICK CLEGG: Well look ...

ANDREW MARR: .. don't regret saying it and you won't say it's a lesson learned.

NICK CLEGG: Well not least because I know almost anything I say will just simply add fuel to the fire. Having, being candid in a, in a media environment where that is demanded of you all the time does run some, some risks and has some disadvantages.

ANDREW MARR: When it comes to cannabis or other drugs policy really matters. The decisions you take really matter. Is it not therefore fair to say that how you've behaved earlier on really matters too and people have a right to know about that?

NICK CLEGG: My own view is that how a politician behaves maybe twenty, twenty five years before they've even thought of going into politics has no bearing on what they do as a politician.

My own view on drug classification which has been in the news this week as Gordon Brown appears to have second guessed the conclusions of the drug and misuse advisory committee is that we need to take the politics out of this debate on classification. It's no good ...

ANDREW MARR: And go with, and go with the committee in other words?

NICK CLEGG: I personally would beef up the status of the committee and the ability of the committee to act independently and make recommendations which can't simply be brushed away by a prime minister keen to grab a headline or two.

ANDREW MARR: So when they say ..

NICK CLEGG: We can't, we can't, we can't constantly chop and change for instance on the categorisation of cannabis. I think something, this is exactly the kind of thing where you need a dispassionate view to see what is the link between cannabis use, its, its, its potency in its new contemporary forms, its link to the use of other more powerful drugs. And the committee in question does not believe if reports to, to, to have any credibility, does not believe that the present categorisation should be changed yet again.

ANDREW MARR: Let's, let's turn to the other great controversy at the moment which is the 10p tax band. Because in, in some respects as Nigel Lawson was saying Labour has returned to a simpler system. Got rid of a 10p band, introduced a 20p band which is slightly lower than the previous lower band. What's wrong with that?

NICK CLEGG: I think it is, I think it's a very, I think it's a defining moment in British politics. I don't think the Labour government now has any right to talk about fairness in British society anymore. They are abandoning over five million of the poorest people. Why? For a cheap political stunt by Gordon Brown himself. It is an ex...

ANDREW MARR: When you say they're abandoning those people explain what you mean by that.

NICK CLEGG: Well because by removing the ten per cent tax, in effect from this weekend onwards, soldiers serving in Afghanistan, nurses working hard on the NHS, low income pensioners, over five million of the poorest people, it's estimated with incomes between five thousand and eighteen thousand pounds, are suddenly finding that their starting rate of tax is doubling, is doubling. Why? So that Gordon Brown could offer a 2p cut in the rate from twenty two per cent, 22p to 20p for, for the, for the following day's headlines.

I think that is an outrageous political stunt at the cost of the poorest in British society. What he should be doing, is what we are doing, is looking at the way in which we relive the tax burden precisely on those poorest people. That's why we're advocating a 4p cut in the basic rate of income tax for people on, on low and middle incomes.

ANDREW MARR: And finally to all those people standing in the rain in London or watching, should athletes as well as politicians, should anybody be carrying those torches through London?

NICK CLEGG: I think the pol.. I think the political class needs, is, got particular responsibility. That's why I focus my remarks on Gordon Brown.

He is the prime minister of this country. We believe in human rights. If we're going to believe in human rights we have to make ourselves count.

ANDREW MARR: Nick Clegg thank you very much indeed.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

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