Independent thinking

Let the people of Scotland decide their future, says First Minister Alex Salmond.

Alex Salmond MSP, First Minister of Scotland

ALEX SALMOND: Well the social union between Scotland and England in particular, but the other countries in these islands, is the union of families, of relationships, they don't depend on Scotland being devolved or independent.

These relationships will continue and flourish when Scotland becomes an independent country.

And to a certain extent the fact that we've said look, the Queen as head of state looks fine to us - she's head of state of fourteen or fifteen other countries across the world - I think that kind of symbolises that social union.

We don't want to disrupt the social union, we just want the right to decide for ourselves how we're governed, not just over some issues but over all issues.

ANDREW MARR: At the moment we've got a situation in Scotland where if you're elderly and you need personal care you get that free, where lots of drugs that English people have to pay for are available free in Scotland, where if you got to university you get your tutorial fees paid by the government. Do you understand the resentment and rising anger of a lot of English people about this? It seems to then that the Scots are in some sense freeloading?

ALEX SALMOND: Well I can understand that people for example in Berwick look at the SNP government in Scotland and say well I like the look of their policies an much more than I like Gordon Brown's policies in London, I can understand that, but these are choices that this government, and for that matter the last executive, have made, but can I just say?

ANDREW MARR: They're choices funded by the Barnett formula, which gives a higher spending per head to Scots than English voters get.

ALEX SALMOND: Well I would question that. if you take the balance between Scottish resources and Scottish expenditure then Scotland is in relative surplus by many billions of pounds. 240 thousand million pounds of Scottish resources in terms of oil and gas revenues have flowed straight from the Scottish sector of the North Sea to the Treasury over the last 25 years.

ANDREW MARR: It's been revealed that you cost the taxpayer �130,000 of expenses by being a member of the English Parliament - or in the British Parliament - voted 18 times. Is that good value?

ALEX SALMOND: I'd just point out that that's not expenses to me, this is staff salaries and office expenses for running my constituency office in Banff and Buchan. I'm not the first person to be in this position. Donald Dewar, Henry Macleish, Jim Wallace, all held that office and for that transitional period were also MPs at Westminster and I've spoken and voted more times at Westminster more times than any of my predecessors.

ANDREW MARR: Well isn't it a bit ridiculous. Here you are, first minister of Scotland in these magnificent surroundings, running Scottish budgets and so on, and still an MP at Westminster. Shouldn't you give that up?

ALEX SALMOND: Well that's what I'm doing at the next election?

ANDREW MARR: You will stand down?

ALEX SALMOND: I stood for election on that platform and of course I'll discharge that. I mean I expected to be standing down last October and the Prime Minister cancelled that election. I stood for Parliament in Banff and Buchan in 2005 and I made it clear I would serve out the term.

ANDREW MARR: Let's turn to what you've been talking about and announcing this week in terms of how you get Scotland from here to independence, or try to. You've said that there should be a referendum in which there might be three options - things as they are now, devolution with extra powers or full independence. People would get a vote on each and by a system of elimination you'd get to the end result. It's been pointed out that that could get to independence without a majority of Scots voting for it.

ALEX SALMOND: No, what a preference vote system does is arrives at a majority. The Electoral Reform Society this very day said that that was the obvious way to handle what's called the multi-option referendum.

Incidentally a multi-option referendum is not a new idea in Scottish politics: it was supported by the late Donald Dewar, the late John Smith, by Gordon Brown in 1992, when the options would have been the status quo then, devolution, independence.

ANDREW MARR: It's just that it's such a big step, independence, that some people say it should be a straightforward yes or no.

ALEX SALMOND: Incidentally that is our first preference, is to have a referendum on a straight question. What I'm trying to do is to say to the other parties - they've got together on a, they call it a commission north of the border, a commission or a working party or a review in Downing Street?

ANDREW MARR: To see if devolution should have extra powers.

ALEX SALMOND: To see if they can come up with another position, and I've just said look I've got no fears about accommodating that on a ballot paper if such a position comes forward. I've made it clear I can see the case for a multi-option referendum to give that breadth of choice to the Scottish people, and if you have a multi-option referendum then, to quote the Electoral Reform Society, the obvious way to resolve it is through a preferential vote, it's the only way you could resolve it.

ANDREW MARR: If things are going so well why do only a quarter of Scots say they actually want independence?

ALEX SALMOND: Well it's interesting that the poll last Sunday, the one you're quoting, showed a number of things, actually. It showed that the SNP government was far in the lead, in a double digit lead. But on the question of independence the support for independence now is about a quarter but they also asked the question 'would you vote for independence under certain circumstances', and it was two-thirds of the people in the same poll, the same people, said they would vote and therefore?

ANDREW MARR: It's a long game?

ALEX SALMOND: Well not necessarily a long game, but it's certainly a conversation that we have to pursue with the people and indeed the great institutions of Scotland,

ANDREW MARR: That's what you'd like to do but you're in a position, you're a minority government where you have to get agreement from other parties. Is there any realistic prospect of getting them to agree a referendum in the near future?

ALEX SALMOND: I think it's very difficult to resist the argument about a referendum for one obvious reason: opinion polls show various things about independence and devolution, and no doubt they show various things about political parties, but one thing has always been the case, in every single opinion poll I've ever seen, is that 80% of the people of Scotland, a majority of every single political party, say that this matter, this issue, the constitutional future of this nation, this should be decided by the people in a referendum, and it's very difficult to resist that, Andrew.

ANDREW MARR: You think it is entirely plausible that in two years' time there will be a vote in the Scottish Parliament for a referendum, that referendum will follow and in three or four years time Scotland will be an independent country?

ALEX SALMOND: Well that's the timing we're bringing forward.

ANDREW MARR: So one way or another there's going to be a crunch point not far away. What do you have to do on other issues to persuade more than a quarter of Scots to vote for independence?

ALEX SALMOND: Well my view is that if the SNP government continues as it's doing, winning spectacular public approval for the initiatives we're making on a range of social and economic issues, then that will build the confidence and support of Scots for voting in favour of independence in a referendum. I think it actually supports the independence case to see the SNP performing well in government.

Now I think whatever the backchat from political opponents I think most observers would concede that the performance of the SNP in government has won substantial public approval. I believe that as that continues, that will be one of the aspects of the conversation that persuades people that the government and that the Scotland, the parliament, can be trusted with the normal powers of an independent country.

ANDREW MARR: Gordon Brown is warning about secessionist voices, by which I presume he means you, and he argues that there is a kind of covenant of understanding amongst the British people, of values that go back a long way, and that the idea that you can have a Wales-only, England-only, Scotland-only solution to climate change or to global terrorism or to migration and so on, is for the birds. Is there no part of you that sees those arguments and thinks there is something in them.

ALEX SALMOND: I think Gordon Brown's language betrays the weakness of his argument. I mean if you have to try to start talking about secessionism as opposed to independence or the right self-determination. What I'm saying look if there are global challenges let's face them globally, Scotland participating as an independent country.

I don't think there are any particular British solutions to the various arguments that he's put forward. And some of them, of course, do have a particular Scottish aspect. If you take immigration, for example, we're not full up in Scotland, we have a key skills shortage and there's certain people?

ANDREW MARR: You'd like a bit more immigration?

ALEX SALMOND: Well yeah, indeed, we have a different attitude towards the question, particular of skills and immigration. So there's an example of where it suits Scotland to have more responsibility over immigration policy.

ANDREW MARR: Would it suit you for the Conservatives to win the next general election?

ALEX SALMOND: No, what'd suit me for us to govern Scotland well and be able to put our case to the people having had that conversation with the great institutions of Scotland.

ANDREW MARR: And would England be better off if Scotland was independent?

ALEX SALMOND: I think countries are better off self-governing. I think Scotland and England will both benefit from the process of independence.

When I was a boy growing up in Linlithgow I had a next door neighbour called Nan Boffett who was a very, very wise woman who once told me that when Scotland becomes independence, then England will lose a surly lodger and gain a good neighbour. I thought that was impressive then and I still believe it now. ANDREW MARR: Thank you very much. ALEX SALMOND: A pleasure.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

Your comments

Disclaimer: The BBC may edit your comments and cannot guarantee that all emails will be published.

E-mail this to a friend

Printable version