New Dawn in Zimbabwe?

Archbishop of York says Mugabe is living on borrowed time.

John Sentamu, Archbishop of York

ANDREW MARR: It's been called the most important election since Zimbabwe won independence back in 1980, but are Zimbabweans waking up to fresh hope this morning, or is it going to be the latest circle of political hell for them?

Mugabe said he couldn't sleep with his conscience if he was a cheater, but there are already many reports of systematic rigging and intimidation which will be no surprise, I'm sure, to the Archbishop of York, Dr. John Sentamu, who last December cut up his dog collar on this show in protest at human rights abuses of Mugabe's regime.

[clip showing John Sentamu cutting up his dog collar]

Well the Archbishop is about as close as he can get with views like that to Zimbabwe, he's next door in South Africa where he joins me now. Welcome Archbishop, thank you very much indeed for joining us. What is the news this morning in South Africa, what's the mood?

JOHN SENTAMU: The mood in South Africa, I mean the headline of the Sunday Times in South Africa says "Mugabe must go, and he must go now". And there's quite a lot of feeling that this is a tipping point really for Zimbabwe, and if he doesn't go the country's going to be driven back into a greater chaos. If he goes I think the international community will have to work hard to build the Zimbabwe which has been destroyed.

ANDREW MARR: Morgan Tsvangirai, the opposition leader, has claimed victory already. Is there any sense coming through that it is going to be clear from these election results either than Zanu has won again, or that the MDC has won?

JOHN SENTAMU: Well, I think there's been a huge, huge turn-out. There was a disputed ballot box area where there was a little shock really, where people have not lived for a very long time, it's in a field and there was a claim that there were 8,000 people living there.

So that was disputed. And I suspect the electoral commission will probably discount those particular votes because nobody lives in that particular area. But in Bulawayo and other places again voting has been pretty brisk. In fact in one area they had to extend the voting time beyond seven o'clock because the queues were very, very long. One hopes that the people who are observing all this election will make sure that there's no vote rigging.

And I'm hopeful that actually if Mugabe does win he would have done it because either people voted for him, but I suspect you may end up with a split vote between Simba Makoni and Mugabe who are members of ZANU PF and then the movement for democratic change with the union so you may end up at the end of day probably with no clear winner, and having to have the election re-run between the two top people. But the hope and mood and concern of everybody is that actually this is the time which would tip Mugabe no longer to be president of that country, and again we wait to see what is going to happen. So, as you can see, I still haven't got my dog collar.

ANDREW MARR: Yes.

JOHN SENTAMU: But maybe today you have to send me my pieces and put them together so that I can wear them at the enthronement of the new Archbishop of Cape Town.

ANDREW MARR: Well I have them in an envelope waiting for you. When you send for them they will come to you and you can put them back and put them on. In your waters, in your bowels, do you think that this is finally the end for Robert Mugabe?

JOHN SENTAMU: I have been saying for nearly three weeks now that he's living on borrowed time and my guts seem to tell me that this is it, because a lot of people have voted, and those who couldn't vote who are refugees here in South African, the actual ballot box which they carried out was resoundingly Mugabe being defeated.

So let's hope this is going to be replicated throughout, you know, Zimbabwe. And also the reports are being encouraging in a sense that although you had a strong police presence nevertheless they're simply keeping a watchful eye and not beating up endlessly a lot of people who are voting. But also there were some people who were refused to vote because they said they were at a wrong polling station, they should have been at another polling station.

But on the whole one hopes that this is it, and that Mugabe will really, you know, step down. And the encouraging thing actually is, for the first time he said that if this election is won by the opposition we will accept the result. He said that yesterday when he was leaving the voting booth. So, for the first time he's probably sensing this could be it and I would have thought magnanimously really he should step down at the age of 84 and allow other people to come and rule the country.

ANDREW MARR: If he doesn't is there a danger of Kenyan-style violence?

JOHN SENTAMU: Well I hope and pray that Zimbabwe will not go down that route. I mean there've been some unhelpful comments by the chief of police and chief of the army that they will never rule under the opposition. But again I want to take seriously the comment by Robert Mugabe that whoever wins the election must be the one who is sworn in.

And if, if it looks very clear that the movement for democratic union has actually won, and according to the tally of the results, then Mugabe stays on to power because he's been, you know, kept up by the army and by the police, I think we're going to go into a very ghastly situation. I'm praying and I'm hoping that actually sense will dawn on the minds of Zimbabweans. You see, Zimbabweans by nature, that's why Mugabe has ruled for a long time, are very peace-loving people.

So I hope that they will not resort to what actually happened to Kenya because in the long run again it's always the poor, the lonely, the unemployed, those who've suffered quite a lot, who end up always as refugees in their neighbouring countries.

So I'm hoping whatever the result is people should not resort to violence because violence will simply create more and more violence when most people can't actually survive.

I was speaking to a Zimbabwean who went and voted and came to South Africa and he said, you know by the way I looked for a loaf of bread and the money that I had to carry was ten times heavier than the tiny little loaf of bread that I bought, so that tells you the country's in a real, real bad place. So I'm praying and hoping that what happened to Kenya won't happen.

ANDREW MARR: All right.

JOHN SENTAMU: ...and that people will realise that change is needed.

ANDREW MARR: Archbishop, thank you very much indeed. I hope to see you back in London with your dog collar on before long, but for now thank you.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

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