Paisley: time for new generation

Retiring First Minister says he retired to let a new generation take over

Ian Paisley, Northern Ireland First Minister

ANDREW MARR: Well even before those storms, a mighty oak has crashed to the floor of the forest, said an article in the Belfast Telegraph the other day and it's referring of course to Ian Paisley's announcement that he is to stand down as First Minister of Northern Ireland in a couple of months' time.

After decades of obstructing every attempted political compromise he astounded the world when he agreed to a power sharing deal with Sinn Fein.

Of course it made some of his followers deeply uncomfortable, but when I met Dr. Paisley in his office at Stormont for his first full interview since he made the announcement, he insisted that the reasons for going were quite straightforward.

IAN PAISLEY: I mean I am not a young man, I'm in my 82nd year and while I am feeling perfectly well there are other things I'd like to do before I finish my course on earth.

There's a new thinking in Ulster today, and not only that is there new thinking, there's a new generation, there are people now are coming out of their teens and, I mean, they didn't know the troubles, they were never there.

And after all, that's the sort of country they want to live in and they should be given the opportunity to help to mould that country, and how they feel it should be run.

ANDREW MARR: It has also been suggested there might have been some internal move against you, some behind-the-scenes coup?

IAN PAISLEY: There is always people in every party who, for reasons best known to themselves, would take different attitudes.

But that's politics, and I think people know that I wouldn't budge very easily if I didn't want to, I go a certain path. I mean, I'm long enough, I'm long enough in this particular work to be soft because things are thrown at me. I think I've survived fairly well.

ANDREW MARR: You have been seen time and again apparently getting on pretty well with Martin McGuinness. What do you really think of him?

IAN PAISLEY: Well I, speaking frankly, I said to him first day I spoke to him, when I was appointed, I said you know we could have a row here every day and we could fight every day. We could pull down the blinds and have a real fistigo. And I said if that's the way you want to do it, well good, I'm ready for it. But I said at the end of the day what good is that going to do our country?

I mean there's great differences between us, I'm a Unionist, everybody knows that, and he's a Republican. And that's a fact of life. But the fact of life is that because of the so-called democratic system we have here we both have to work together. Well, where do you go? Ulster has nowhere else to go but this road.

ANDREW MARR: But as a man you seem to like him?

IAN PAISLEY: My father used to say you have to work with the timber that's sent even though there's many knots in it!

ANDREW MARR: Does that suggest you don't really like him, but the impression has been that you liked him and that has perhaps damaged you among some of your own people?

IAN PAISLEY: Our working relationship has been very good, and I think that when you look back at what we have achieved, and what we're doing, I think you have to give us full marks.

And I don't think that the present agreement has to do with the personalities of the leaders, I think it's to do with the fact that this is the only way we can go. And if we don't go this way others will take it out of our hands and they'll go whatever way they want.

ANDREW MARR: Speaking of hands, have you shaken hands with him yet?

IAN PAISLEY: No. I made it clear to him that hand-shaking was a bit of a farce in this country. I have seen all the leaders shaking hands and then going out to drive a bayonet into the back of the person they've shaken hands with, and I don't believe in that. I believe that we should just be honest about the matter, and he knows that, and that's not an issue we worry about. He knows I'll not be shaking hands with him and that's it.

ANDREW MARR: Everybody I've talked to about this process has said the great mystery they don't understand is why you decided to go the road you did and do the deal you did? Was there a moment of revelation, was it a discussion in the family, was there a time when you suddenly thought "this is what I am going to do"?

IAN PAISLEY: No, I said to the Prime Minister, you want me to share power, there can be no sharing of power until the Sinn Fein movement accepts the rule of law in Northern Ireland.

If they bow the knee and say yes we will obey the law, just the same way as the Protestant people and Unionist people have to obey the law, then we'll do everything in that way. Now immediately that they came to the decision they would do that, and immediately they signed up, and were prepared to give the pledge, I as an honourable man had to say right, that's what I asked for.

ANDREW MARR: How did it feel for you personally, because you'd always said you were going to smash Sinn Fein, that was the word, you were going to smash them, and here you were in government with them?

IAN PAISLEY: Well actually I did smash them because I took away their main plank, for their main plank was they wouldn't recognise the British government. Now they're in part of the British government.

ANDREW MARR: Do you think they're not real Republicans any more?

IAN PAISLEY: Well they can't be true Republicans when they now accept the right of Britain to govern this country, and to take part in that government.

ANDREW MARR: It's been a long, raw, bloody road to get to this place. A very long road.

IAN PAISLEY: It certainly has. A very sad road for many...

ANDREW MARR: Very sad.

IAN PAISLEY: ... sad people, there are hearts that are broken and hearts that are sad and...

ANDREW MARR: Do you look back at your earlier self, the Ian Paisley when you were in your 30s, and ask yourself what would have happened had you been more of a salve and less of a goad?

IAN PAISLEY: No, I think there had to be resistance.

ANDREW MARR: There had to be resistance possibly, but did there have to be that level of hatred, and did you not stoke that hatred from time to time yourself?

IAN PAISLEY: No, I don't think so. I think I was very, very fair and I think that the best way to answer that is to say to the North Antrim constituency, ask any Roman Catholic anywhere in that constituency is Ian Paisley a faithful MP, and they'll say "yes".

ANDREW MARR: Now I have heard people say that and I accept that. What I'm wondering is about some of those big street demonstrations in the very early days - don't you regret some of that?

IAN PAISLEY: No, because they had to be, if we hadn't had the street demonstrations we'd have lost the cause. What made me so strong at the end of the day, to negotiate the deal that we've got, was because of that strike. It had to be. And I mean, it was a war situation. I mean we had murders in the street, bombs were going off, police were being shot, the whole place was being made a veritable wilderness. And you know they needed a voice that would stand up strongly.

It's not a pleasant thing to be, I mean I lived under constant threats, still, I mean the police with me the other day saying that, you know, you're going to be shot, they're going to take you out. Well I said you know a threatened man lives long and as far as I am concerned threats are not... threats never worry me because I think if people are going to kill you they will kill you, they'll not send you a postcard saying take me out on Thursday!

ANDREW MARR: What about Catholicism itself? I mean do you still think that the Pope's the antichrist and the previous Popes are burning?

IAN PAISLEY: Well I'm not, I am a Protestant and I accept the cardinal truths and have always been taught by Protestantism and all the reform churches all have that in their confessions of faith.

ANDREW MARR: Mmm.

IAN PAISLEY: And I accept the reformist doctrine on Rome, and everybody knows that. I am a Protestant without apology. Everybody knows where I stand.

ANDREW MARR: But you can get on with them, I mean you can regard them as fellow Christians?

IAN PAISLEY: The bible makes it clear that within the system of Romanism there are people that are the Lord's people. I mean in just the same way I might turn it and say you know the Roman Catholic church and their systems all teach that there's no hope for anybody except they are part and parcel of the Roman Catholic system. So they've already sent me to hell and Hades and all rest of it. So that is their teaching but that's not what I believe, I believe that there's one thing necessary for salvation and it's faith in Jesus Christ.

ANDREW MARR: And when people look back on you what would you like them to say about you? Would you like them to say that Ian Paisley was the man who, you know, led his people for a long period? Or would you like them to say this is the man who made peace in the end?

IAN PAISLEY: I am a sinner saved by the grace of God. I have my faults which are many, which I lament. I want to do the best for my country and I want to say that I believe that when I helped to get a settlement of the Northern Ireland situation, and I was only a helper, I mean I don't deserve all the praise.

ANDREW MARR: And do you think out there around us peace is not entrenched? I mean there's areas where there's still violence, where there's sectarian violence, where there's thuggery and so on going on right now, but do you think that is ebbing?

IAN PAISLEY: Oh it is ebbing, certainly it's ebbing, and thank God it's ebbing. Oh there's still, there's still on both sides of the divide, there are still people who have their guns and no doubt would use them if they felt that way.

But I mean that is very, very small compared to what was. And I mean who would have thought that the centre of Belfast would be regenerated the way it is today? Who would have dreamt it, it's absolutely amazing.

ANDREW MARR: And there's no going back now?

IAN PAISLEY: No, there's no going back. If the people wanted to go back nobody is going to go back with them, they're going to... I mean who wants to give up what we're now having for what we once had?

ANDREW MARR: But after this long, long history there must be some things you regret?

IAN PAISLEY: Oh yes, there's always in a person's life things they regret. But I have no major regrets, I believe the line I took was a consistent Unionist line. I believe that I never hid my light under a bushel, people knew what I was, I mean when you asked who was Ian Paisley? "Oh that guy, I'll tell you all about him!"

I mean I didn't hide in a cubby-hole and look out and see was the weather fair, and then make my statements. I mean I was open and above board in everything I did, and hope to continue in that way.

ANDREW MARR: You said earlier on that you hadn't completed all the things that you wanted to do on this earth. Can I ask you what you want to do still?

IAN PAISLEY: Well I would like to write the story of how I see my country. And I believe that I owe that to the future because so many people will come along and they're write up Ian Paisley this way and the other and I think it's only right that a future generation know what the man himself had to say about the matter.

ANDREW MARR: Well they've had a glimpse of it, now thank you very much indeed for joining me Dr. Paisley.

IAN PAISLEY: Thank you.

ANDREW MARR: The man himself, Ian Paisley is nearly 82 and still going very, very strong indeed.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

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