The Home Secretary Jacqui Smith explained how the government is tackling violent crime, alcohol and terrorism.

Jacqui Smith MP, Home Secretary

ANDREW MARR: Now Jacqui Smith joins me now. Home Secretary ..

JACQUI SMITH: Morning Andrew.

ANDREW MARR: .. welcome. Let's turn first of all to the forty two day row.

We heard Nick Clegg vociferously insisting that this was going to be defeated if not in the Commons then certainly in the Lords.

How did you come up with the figure forty two days? Because it was ninety days and fifty days, twenty eight days.

Why forty two? JACQUI SMITH: Well firstly Andrew, let's be clear. You describe this as wanting to hold people for forty two days.

It isn't.

It's wanting to solve the problem about which there is now a consensus that if the scale and complexity of terrorist plots continues to grow as they are we may well find a situation in the future where only being able to hold somebody for twenty eight days means they might have to be released before they could be charged and prosecuted and hopefully convicted.

Now that's the problem that we need to address. And the argument that we've brought forward, incidentally having changed our position quite considerably, having listened to what people have said during the consultation is we can't sit on our hands facing that risk. We recognise that the arguments for not making a permanent change are strong. But what we're proposing is a reserved power that if the circumstances necessitated it would allow an application to hold somebody for longer than twenty eight days.

Now the forty two days is not some sort of target, it's a safeguard. It's an absolute maximum. The question is can we find a way to actually prevent twenty eight days being a barrier to bringing potential terrorist subjects to justice.

ANDREW MARR: The former Attorney General, the former Lord Chancellor, the Director of Public Prosecutions all say you don't need this power. Why should we listen to you and not to them? They know what's going on.

JACQUI SMITH: Well they've argued, as have I in fact, in public, that it isn't that we have had a case yet where we have needed to release somebody before twenty eight days, but there is a broad consensus - the Home Affairs Select Committee, the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism, never mind the police and those who we actually charge to investigate and bring to justice terrorists - that the way in which terrorist plots are developing, the complexity of the networks means that we may face that situation in the future. And we do have to ask ourselves Andrew whether or not we're just going to leave it until we face an emergency to legislate ..

ANDREW MARR: Well you do have special ..

JACQUI SMITH: .. or whether we're going to legislate calmly now.

ANDREW MARR: You do have special emergency powers if something terrible happens which your own government put in place. There has not been any case as you say where this is going to be necessary.

Do you not understand those who say there is a real problem with "in case" legislation when it comes to fundamental civil liberties. Every other country in Europe has tiny periods of detention compared to us. Turkey is seven days. And we've, we're going from twenty eight days to forty two. JACQUI SMITH: No. No. Firstly those international comparisons to a certain extent are spurious. In this country anybody held for longer than forty eight hours comes in front of a judge.

We have a case in Italy, not even related to terrorism at the moment where people have been held for at least three months and the suggestion is they could be held up to a year before they're charged. So I don't think those comparisons hold. But the point here is we do have a problem. It's been broadly identified.

Now you know frankly Nick Clegg and David Cameron, if the new politics means anything it means you responding to the fact that we as a government have taken a very different approach to this counter terror legislation. We've listened, we've moved considerably from where we were, even back in July.

We've recognised that this is something, for the reasons that you've argued, that shouldn't be a permanent change, that should be wholly exceptional, but should be time limited. That's what we're working towards. But we've seen no movement from anybody else at the moment. Now I'm the Home Sec...

ANDREW MARR: Lots, you've got lots of - are you saying the police are behind you? Lots of police chiefs are not. The Police Federation are not. And above all up to a hundred of your own back-benchers have been hostile to this. Have you done enough do you think to buy them off?

JACQUI SMITH: Well it's not about buying people off, it's about recognising the understandable concerns about liberty but also recognising that as Home Secretary I can't afford to sit on my hands if there is a potential risk to our ability to be able to bring to justice terrorists in the future.

ANDREW MARR: But there's always a potential risk here or there. It is always something in the future you can have nightmares about. But if you legislate all the time on the basis of future nightmares we're going to have absolutely no civil liberties left in this country at all.

JACQUI SMITH: Well I think we're legislating in a way that is proportionate, that actually involves no change to the status quo unless a set of circumstances arise. You know we're talking about a reserve power. That's a very big change that we've made since the beginning.

Now incidentally I do agree with you that that best way to deal with a long term risk is precisely to be able to address that and particularly the way in which people may be radicalised and turn to terrorism, which is why of course I was talking about that last Thursday.

ANDREW MARR: And why you're changing ..

JACQUI SMITH: We're not talking only about legislation to solve this problem. But where we have identified an issue, where we've taken the sort of approach that we have taken to consulting, and to building a consensus, then I think that we need ..

ANDREW MARR: Okay.

JACQUI SMITH: .. to, you know to be able to make those changes.

ANDREW MARR: On that second part of what you were saying have you changed the language? Do you no longer say Islamic or Muslim terrorism for instance?

JACQUI SMITH: I talked specifically about the sort of terrorist threat that we face being anti Islamic, and in particular I said that this is a threat that comes from criminal terrorists.

I said that right back at the beginning when I faced those foiled and unsuccessful terrorist attacks in my first weekend as Home Secretary. You know language actually in this area ..

ANDREW MARR: Matters.

JACQUI SMITH: .. is important. It does matter.

ANDREW MARR: Do you use the phrase "war on terror"?

JACQUI SMITH: I haven't used that phrase but not ..

ANDREW MARR: Why not?

JACQUI SMITH: Well I think particularly within the UK we've been very clear that we see terrorists as criminals, we see bringing them to justice as being about using the criminal justice system.

I argued on Thursday that you need to defeat terrorism in this country through force of argument rather than through force from the sort of authority that comes from the shared values that we hold rather than from some sort of authoritarian approach.

ANDREW MARR: So how do you react to somebody like the Bishop of Rochester saying that there are no go areas, partly for religious reasons, in this country now?

JACQUI SMITH: Well I don't agree with him. You know I think we do, as I was talking about on Thursday, need to make sure that whether or not it's through community activity or in other areas as we are across government build cohesion and integration amongst our communities, and we're doing that. And I, and I don't believe that there are areas like that in this country. In fact I think ..

ANDREW MARR: Okay.

JACQUI SMITH: .. what we need to build all of our work on, and particularly our counter terror work, is actually the shared values that we hold across communities and religious backgrounds.

ANDREW MARR: Let's turn to violent crime and the Gary Newlove case. Do you accept that there was a catastrophic failure by the police in this instance?

JACQUI SMITH: Well let's be clear. The police caught the people who were responsible for that. And have brought them ..

ANDREW MARR: Yes. After it had happened and after the local community had begged them for action and warned them there were problems on the streets and on the estate.

JACQUI SMITH: And there is a broader argument about how we respond to what ..

ANDREW MARR: Well just before the broader argument if I might. I mean do you accept that the police, the people in charge of that area made a catastrophic mistake?

JACQUI SMITH: No I, no I don't accept that. Those, you know those people who committed a awful attack on a brave man who was standing up for his community have been caught and have been brought to justice. I know that there are questions about the bailing of one of them in particular.

That's something that Jack Straw has said whilst difficult decisions need to be made quite rightly by the judiciary and by magistrates, that you know of course we will look at the conditions around that.

ANDREW MARR: Do you think we need to change the bail system? Because here, here was somebody who had committed a series of violent acts, who had clearly been running out of control and was released on bail again and again and again.

JACQUI SMITH: Well if we do Jack Straw has already said we will look at what we can learn from this, these circumstances and see whether or not we need to. But you know these are always difficult decisions that we expect rightly an independent judiciary and magistrates to take.

ANDREW MARR: The Deputy Chief Constable of Cheshire said that this was a tipping point in the country's attitude to violent crime. Do you agree with that?

JACQUI SMITH: I'm not so sure I think that. I mean what I do think is that violent offences like this do have an impact on the way that people feel about crime. But to come back to what you were saying previously I also accept that we need to do more at a community level to respond to what local people are saying about antisocial behaviour, about the things that are worrying them in their communities.

That's why this year we'll see in every community neighbourhood policing teams, police officers whose names you know, who you can actually talk to, in local meetings and in other ways, about concerns that you have about your streets and where you can expect action to be taken. ANDREW MARR: So .. JACQUI SMITH: And where we've seen those already it is making a difference.

ANDREW MARR: So if Gary Newlove, Gary Newlove's widow is watching this programme which she might well be, and saying but what are you able to do for me. I am outraged by what's happened.

I'm outraged by what happened before my husband was killed, when we were trying to ... and what happened afterwards. Home Secretary what you can you do for me and people like me? What reassurances can you give me?

JACQUI SMITH: Well I mean I don't think there's anything that I can do to take away from the tragedy for Gary Newlove's widow and his family. And you know we are desperately sorry about that.

And I know others are. But what I can say is that you know I understand the need to make sure that where local people have got concerns about what's happening on their streets, the police and others are able to respond to them. That's why we're making the structural changes to the way in which we police our local neighbourhoods. It's why we're going to be expecting people not just to police in that way, but also with their partners, in the council and others, to actually respond to those local concerns.

ANDREW MARR: What can you do about the carrying of knives? Because a lot of people are terrified that young people quite often regularly now carry knives.

JACQUI SMITH: Well we can, as the prime minister said last week, be clear that where people are caught carrying knives, there will be a presumption in areas where there are particular difficulties that they will be prosecuted because of that. We can build on some of the initiatives we've already seen, the British Transport Police, using search arches for example on transport in London.

ANDREW MARR: Are these going to come into schools?

JACQUI SMITH: I think it's a good idea if we look at the ways in which in some schools it might be appropriate to use search arches because I want young people to know that it doesn't make them safer to carry a knife.

It actually makes them more likely to be a victim. I want the general impression to be - I mean the vast majority of young people don't carry knives Andrew. Let's be clear about that.

ANDREW MARR: Sure but we ...

JACQUI SMITH: But I don't want anybody to think I might be a victim and I'm going to carry a knife.

ANDREW MARR: But if you accept that British schools might need metal detectors on the doors - this is the kind of thing that we used to look across at America and gasp with disbelief. It's now got to the stage where we're going to have metal detectors on the schools, in British schools. That says an awful lot about what's happened to violent crime in this country. You know a triple fold increase in violent crime by young people ..

JACQUI SMITH: No.

ANDREW MARR: .. in the last three years.

JACQUI SMITH: No, firstly let's be clear about those figures. What that is is a increase in the numbers of young people who have committed offences who have been brought to justice. It's an increase in the numbers of those cautioned and convicted, not in a number of crimes, which actually figures suggest have remained broadly stable.

Now that's not good enough and it's not good enough for me nationally to say don't worry because crime is falling. I know we have to demonstrate that we're making a difference. And I know incidentally as well that we need not just to talk about national figures but to give people local information about what's happening in their areas to crime, and that's something else that we'll be doing from this year.

ANDREW MARR: In the Newlove case and many others drink was involved. Do you accept that alcohol is now ludicrously cheap, particularly from some supermarkets?

JACQUI SMITH: I think we need to look at whether or not both pricing and promotion is having an impact. And that's work that's already underway. And of course we'll respond to what the conclusions of that are.

ANDREW MARR: But, but we know it's cheap. You don't need to look at it. You can go into a supermarket and look at the prices straight away. And you can see how cheap it is. Is booze in this country too cheap?

JACQUI SMITH: Well, and if we've got young people that are getting hold of drink when they shouldn't be, because it shouldn't be being sold to anybody under eighteen then we need to address that as well. And that's why this month we'll bring in Alcohol Disorder Zones which will enable us to close a premises which in, in areas which are causing particular problems.

It's why we've increased the number of test purchasing campaigns to put pressure on those off licences and supermarkets that are selling to young people under age. It's why we've given the police new powers to be able to confiscate alcohol and to disperse groups of people who are using alcohol on the streets.

ANDREW MARR: Could you see yourself going to the stage of supporting a ban on alcohol being sold at below cost price for instance?

JACQUI SMITH: Well that is what we are looking at at the moment.

That is what research that is already under way. And we will look at the conclusions of that in order to take the sort of action which is going to make a difference. Because that's what I'm concerned about, that we do the things that will actually change people's behaviour and help to solve that problem.

ANDREW MARR: The Conservatives have said we've got a broken society. Your party has said no we don't have a broken society.

In fact what we've got surely are parts of this country which are badly broken. No go areas. You yourself said that you wouldn't walk by, you wouldn't walk alone at night in London.

JACQUI SMITH: What I actually said was I have walked on my own. Not now of course because I'm not allowed to because of my police protection.

But both in London and in my constituency I have in the recent past been wiling to do that. What I also said, and I think most women would recognise this is that you don't walk in areas that you don't know in any circumstances and I never have in my life.

ANDREW MARR: All right.

JACQUI SMITH: But I also said, and it is the case, that I am much less likely to be a victim of crime now than I would have been ten years ago.

ANDREW MARR: Well you're Home Secretary so it's not surprising but ..

JACQUI SMITH: No. No. Everybody is less likely to ..

ANDREW MARR: You - all right.

JACQUI SMITH: .. be a victim of crime. But you know ..

ANDREW MARR: You depend ..

JACQUI SMITH: .. it goes back to what I said before. It's not good enough for me to say it.

ANDREW MARR: You ..

JACQUI SMITH: We've got to demonstrate that ..

ANDREW MARR: Sure.

JACQUI SMITH: .. at a local level.

ANDREW MARR: You depend on the police for all of this. You're giving them a below inflation, one point nine per cent increase, where the support staff, the back room people are getting two and a half per cent. They're going to be marching outside your office and they're angry and they're absolutely right to be angry aren't they?

JACQUI SMITH: No. What we're doing this year across the public sector is taking serous our, seriously our responsibilities to the economy, to making sure that we keep people's mortgage rates down, to keeping inflation under ..

ANDREW MARR: That means a below inflation increase for police.

JACQUI SMITH: .. to keeping inflation under control. Now if those things get out of control police officers, others across the public and the private sector suffer. What I've also said to the police is that I want them to have the best deal possible for the next three years.

ANDREW MARR: But listen, this is - sorry, this is in-supportable if the clerks and the people behind the scenes are getting two and a half per cent and the people on the front line are getting one point nine per cent. You can't hold that line can you?

JACQUI SMITH: Well that, those areas that I have been responsible for but the government widely has been responsible for, in many areas those pay awards have been staged.

The Bank of England themselves have said that has had an impact on the sort of decisions that they've been able to make about interest rates that will impact on people's mortgages. Now those things are not inconsiderable for ..

ANDREW MARR: So, so if I ...

JACQUI SMITH: .. people widely, not just in the public sector ..

ANDREW MARR: Yeah, okay.

JACQUI SMITH: .. but more widely across the country.

ANDREW MARR: Yes or no? Are the police wasting their time to be marching outside your office?

JACQUI SMITH: The police can, the Police Federation and other staff organisations obviously will make their own decisions about what they do.

What I hope they'll also do is engage in what I've already said to them I want to do which is to get the best possible deal over the next three years, one that would ..

ANDREW MARR: Okay.

JACQUI SMITH: .. one that would be alongside the sorts of things that the teachers have got. That's what I want to be talking to them about.

ANDREW MARR: Home Secretary, for now thank you very much indeed.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

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