Hazel Blears MP

ANDREW MARR: Now we've heard what the papers have said about Labour's miseries.

Jack Straw put himself up on this programme last week to talk about it all, but most Labour people have gone quiet.

So thanks to Hazel Blears, the Communities Secretary and former Party chair for getting up in Manchester.

Hazel Blears, in that latter job, did you have any inkling that donations were being made through third parties?

HAZEL BLEARS: No I didn't, not at all. Absolutely not.

ANDREW MARR: It's interesting if you look at when the donations happened, from Mr. Abrahams in this way, they happened just before you took over as Party Chair and then you were Party Chair and they started again just after you left. Was that a coincidence?

HAZEL BLEARS: Well, you know, these matters will be investigated by the Electoral Commission. As I say, I had absolutely no knowledge of these donations at all.

And in fact I wasn't involved on a day to day basis with administering donations, that wasn't the role of Party Chair. Clearly, you know, that was an administrative matter and not something that I would have been involved with.

ANDREW MARR: Now, as Party Chair, some people would have thought, that's a bit strange, you would know about big, big donations coming in.

Somebody clearly was handling Mr. Abrahams from 2003 onwards, and working these proxy donations into the party. Do you know who that person was?

HAZEL BLEARS: No I don't, not at all. And what I would say to you is that there were a lot of people who donated, not just to the Labour Party, but to political parties in general, who genuinely just shared the values of that political party and wanted to make a donation.

And what worries me about all the events of the last week, it's been very serious, but what does worry me is that if people do want to support a political party it now makes it very, very difficult for them to do so.

And I said all the time that I was Party Chair that I think that we do need a long-term settlement for political funding in this country. Otherwise, you know, politics cost money, and this kind of thing is going to happen again and again. And it has done to all the political parties, and at the moment it's damaging politics, and I think that that's a really, really great shame.

ANDREW MARR: It's a big issue which we do want to talk about. But as to Mr. Abrahams himself, did you know him, did you come across him?

HAZEL BLEARS: No, I think I might have seen him at Thousand Club events, social events, but I've never sat down and had any conversations with Mr. Abrahams. But, as I say, I do think that this is now damaging for the whole of politics. I think it's something to do something about.

ANDREW MARR: Absolutely, but yet, you know, there he was, sitting right at the front row of Tony Blair's farewell press conference. I mean he was clearly, you know, close to the people who mattered.

HAZEL BLEARS: Well, I think he said himself that he's been a Labour Party member for 40 years, and I think he's been around, particularly in the North East, for a long time. So, you know, it's inevitable that he would be at events. But as I say, personally I've never had any close dealings with him at all.

ANDREW MARR: What do you say to all of those people watching who think, well, we understand that mistakes can happen and people don't know all they should, and all the rest of it, but yet these were rules that the Labour Party itself had put into law and then the Labour Party itself broke those rules. I mean the very same person who was sitting on Hayden Phillips' enquiry into transparency in funding knew about this gross lack of transparency.

HAZEL BLEARS: Yes, the reason that the Labour Party brought in these rules, because we had a series of scandals if you remember, Polly Peck and Asil Nadir and all of that kind of thing.

And there was a genuine desire to say, let's get this out into the open, and I think honestly the public and party members are feeling bewildered, angry, upset about what's happened, and I think now there's a mood across the country.

For goodness sake, you know, politics does cost money, you have to fund it from somewhere, let's make sure that we get a long-term settlement in this country because, you know, this week for example, I've been introducing a Planning Bill, we've had a Housing Bill and all that has just, gone by the wayside. And actually there's big things facing this country and I think we've just got to deal with this matter really.

ANDREW MARR: And do you have any knowledge of anybody else who has given third party donations to the Labour Party, or is this the only case?

HAZEL BLEARS: Well I have no knowledge of anybody else who has donated in this way. But as I say, I was not involved on a day to day basis dealing with donations. That wasn't part of the duties that I do.

What I was trying to do was trying to be part of this getting a negotiation for a future settlement for party funding, for goodness sake. And I think that's the prize now.

ANDREW MARR: Well let's get on to that prize. Is that going to mean the taxpayer paying more for politics?

HAZEL BLEARS: What I always suggested was first of all a really small limit on expenditure. I think we could do a General Election probably for about �12million or �13 million. At the moment we spent, and the Tories did, �6 million or �7 million on billboards.

We all know billboards don't really affect the way people vote, so let's do away with billboards. We could get the expenditure limit right down. Then you could have small donations, and at the moment, you know the Trade Union individual donations are less than �6 a year, and then you could look at possible caps on donations.

We've got to have a proper system that says, actually in this country it is legitimate if you share the values of a political party to make a donation. But let's face it, at the moment good, decent people who want to donate would find it very difficult in this kind of fevered atmosphere to do that.

ANDREW MARR: The Prime Minister's just talked yesterday about Trade Union donations and a new start. We could be seeing a sort of �50,000 cap on individual organisations, do you think?

HAZEL BLEARS: Well I think that we've got to look at this really seriously indeed. We've got to try and establish a level playing field for all political parties because all of us have found ourselves in difficulties.

We've got to have a transparent system for the public, and I think that the individual affiliation fees that trade unionists pay towards a party that they feel represents their views and are about �6 a year, I think that's perfectly legitimate.

ANDREW MARR: Sorry, but just to jump back. As an organisation, if you took it down to, say, �50,000 which is what the Conservatives suggest which is why I used the figure.

That would change of course the relationship between Labour Party and the Trade Unions. My question is, are you as a former Party Chair prepared to go to that extent to clean this up?

HAZEL BLEARS: Well I think that we do need to look at having a cap around those kind of corporate donations. I mean it's got to be a subject of debate, but I think...

ANDREW MARR: Of around how much?

HAZEL BLEARS: Well if, I mean, Hayden Phillips has talked about the possibility of �50,000. I think we should look really seriously now at what Hayden Phillips has recommended.

He's been at this for a year, you know he's put a lot of work in and he's done a lot of research, looked at international comparisons. Let's get to grips with it now, let's get on with it and let's get a proper settlement.

ANDREW MARR: So if we came out of this process, the Hayden Phillips process, with a proposal on the table - no organisation could offer more than �50,000 a year to a political party, you yourself would accept that and be happy with that?

HAZEL BLEARS: Well I think that we have a responsibility to look at that very seriously indeed provided individual affiliates to Trade Unions can carry on giving their literally pennies a year to the Labour Party, because they feel it represents their values.

That's what I want a system that whether you're a very wealthy person, or whether you're a small donor, if you've got a political party that you care about you should be able to make a donation without the fear of the heavens opening in on you as we've seen this week.

ANDREW MARR: This is fascinating. So, we could go from the situation we've got at the moment where all of that money is funnelled through, as it were, general secretaries and Trade Union bosses, to a system where individual trade unionists donated but you got far less, if anything at all, through the huge organisations?

HAZEL BLEARS: Well one of the things that Hayden Phillips was looking at very carefully was about how much transparency there was between the Trade Union members and their donations.

And these are fairly complicated matters, you know they've been around for a hundred years you know, and let's not forget it's not the Trade Union money that's at issue here, so you know, Trade Unionists will feel pretty strongly about this, they've got a historical relationship with the Labour Party which I personally value, I do think our policies are better because we're in touch with people at the workplace, so I don't want to get rid of that at all.

But for goodness sake, let's not see if we can't get round a table and get some agreement, get all the political parties on the same playing field here and let's sort it out so that we can actually get on with the business of running the country which is what the public want us to do.

ANDREW MARR: Now, nonetheless you're going to have to go through some pretty grim days and weeks ahead. Do you yourself expect to be investigated by the police, or answer police questions?

HAZEL BLEARS: Well I haven't had any approach. As I say, I spent a year being Party Chair in fairly tough circumstances.

You know, it was a great experience for me, I'm still there for the party, you know, whenever I need to be. I've been doing this now for, you know, 30 years of my life, really supporting our party.

And I know what the public want and I know what my members want, and that is they want this thing sorted out so we can get on with, you know, things like housing, building all the new homes, planning, energy, climate change, you know, these are the things people care about.

ANDREW MARR: But you know yourself that because wrongdoing has been admitted publicly by the Prime Minister, there could be prosecutions this time.

HAZEL BLEARS: Well, you know, this is a matter for the electoral commission, it's a matter for the police to look at.

What I think is important now is that we all get round a table, not for political advantage, genuinely, but for the interests of democracy in this country. I am very worried that this drip, drip, drip, and you've seen some of the stories in the papers today.

You know, even your people reviewing the papers said, you know, that there's no big development here but you just can't resist it, and I think that that corrosive effect on politics is actually bad for all of us and is bad for Britain.

ANDREW MARR: All right, Hazel Blears from a drip, drip, dripping Manchester, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

HAZEL BLEARS: Thank you.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

Your comments

Disclaimer: The BBC may edit your comments and cannot guarantee that all emails will be published.