David Davis MP, Shadow Home Secretary

ANDREW MARR: You must be bored of being described every time as a big beast. But there we go.

DAVID DAVIS: Yes I am.

ANDREW MARR: I'm sorry about that.

DAVID DAVIS: Yeah.

ANDREW MARR: Let's, well let's, let's start with the ID cards. Because one of the things that struck me about the polls is that although people are beginning to turn against ID cards over all out there there is still a majority, a bigger number of people wanting ID cards than not.

And with all the immigration issues and so on, quite a lot of sort of Conservative minded voters think it's only common sense.

DAVID DAVIS: Oh yeah. I mean when, when this started, when the, this debate started, I think it was an eighty per cent in support of ID cards. Now it depends how you ask the question. You can get a majority for or against. I mean there's one poll today showing a seventy thirty majority against.

But that wasn't the point. The point from the beginning was not to score political points off this, the point was that this was a dangerous scheme. I mean after all this database collapse that we've had in the last week is not the first. We've had them on, on the Police national computer, on criminal databases, on immigration databases.

Doctors' records being put on the web. We've got concerns today about what's happening with respect to the children's database being accessed by tens of thousands of people and therefore being weak as well. This is a serious problem of modern society. It's not just a question - or it isn't for me - of an over mighty state intruding in our lives. It's also actually that it's going to put our own personal security at risk.

So, so the real argument is beginning to get through. But it's a complicated and difficult argument. And until this week there was no stark example. Now everybody in the country knows. Well what happens if somebody gets into this database or in the National Identity Register. Or somebody gets at my details. And in particular actually if they get at my biometric details. I'm compromised for life.

ANDREW MARR: And do you think that argument is percolating through the Labour Party in parliament to the extent where you can actually defeat this proposal?

DAVID DAVIS: Well we, we don't have an opportunity to defeat it because the, the law has gone through. The Act of Parliament has gone through. So the chance is not really there. But I think what is ..

ANDREW MARR: You could have a motion put down to ..

DAVID DAVIS: You could. It's very, very difficult actually to get a say an Opposition motion voted on by - even when they hate the idea it's a hard ..

ANDREW MARR: They won't do it.

DAVID DAVIS: They won't do it because of the tribal politics. But what is, what will happen of course is that it could be a very, very serious issue at the next election.

And that's what's I think worrying Labour members of parliament, thinking heavens, am I going to have to defend this twenty billion pound white elephant, it's going to put everybody's security at risk, at the next election. And what's that going to do for my marginal seat. I think that's really going to be the driver to stop this, stop this, frankly what I think is a mad idea.

ANDREW MARR: You quite rightly attacked the government over this. But to what extent is the question of competence something that any government worries about now in the Civil Service, because you know serious problems occurred inside the Department, inside the Revenue. And one wonders whether under a Conservative government it would have been any different really.

DAVID DAVIS: Well a lot of it, a lot of it's systemic. I mean one of the things that, I mean we're demanding that Alistair Darling - I nearly said Alistair Campbell - Alistair, Alistair Darling comes back to the House on Monday because we don't know whether we've been told the truth but we certainly haven't been told the whole truth about this episode and it's material to your question whether this was a Civil Service failure, let alone a Civil Service failure by a junior member of staff. I'll be blunt with you. I think accusing a junior member of staff of being responsible for this whole problem is at best ignominious and at worst dishonourable.

ANDREW MARR: Do you think there's a cover up?

DAVID DAVIS: Well cover up may be the wrong word. It's a sort of misdirection because there are a whole series of things behind this. The fact that Brown created, Gordon Brown created the Tax Credit system which made the Inland Revenue less effective than it ever was before.

Then he insisted on putting in there the, the, the benefits, the Child Benefit system. Now that turned what was the Revenue Office, which used to be the most efficient arm of government, into a welfare dispensation agency, putting it at its extreme, and made it much more complex, much more difficult.

And with that went all these enormous databases. And without the proper level of concern, proper level of security on them. And it should not be possible. If you had, if your bank allowed every clerk in the bank to download anybody's bank accounts you'd quite properly change your bank. Well I suspect people out there are thinking about changing their government at the moment.

ANDREW MARR: Well, we can't change our revenue collection system, most of us.

DAVID DAVIS: But you can change the government at the end of the day.

ANDREW MARR: So you think it is, it is fundamentally a government issue here.

DAVID DAVIS: Yes absolutely it's a government issue. I mean that's why I said there have been systemic errors across databases right across government. This is a government which historically wants to rely on technology.

That's why ID cards, to rely on technology for that, it wants to rely on tech... and yet it doesn't quite understand the weaknesses of that same technology. And by doing, trying to do one thing, by trying to improve our security they end up actually worsening our security.

ANDREW MARR: So what in clear terms are the questions that you want Alistair Darling to answer? What, what does he now need to come back to the House and tell you?

DAVID DAVIS: Well absolutely at what level for a start was this cleared? Why were all the previous failures not acted on? Last year alone there were two thousand one hundred and eleven security failures. Forty-one computers went missing.

Since they've been in government two thousand computers, nineteen hundred and eighty seven computers in truth have gone missing from this department. Now those computers in that department carry very serious data for you and me. They carry our Inland Revenue records. Why have they not responded to these things? To what extent have ministers been aware of them?

What did they do when the ministers were aware? I mean each time we have a problem like this the government says, "We're learning the lessons". Well you know ten years is a long time for training wheels. It's, you know it's time they actually got on and fixed these things.

ANDREW MARR: Your Party has made some pretty big claims about how much money can be saved in Civil Service jobs including Revenue jobs. Do you think it's time to put all of that on ice, say this is not any longer a priority to kind of get rid of more jobs. Perhaps we need more...

DAVID DAVIS: No. I mean you've got to be sensible about how you do these things. I mean when I was Civil Service Minister I think, I think the Civil Service shrank by thirty thousand actually, the number being talked about for the Revenue at the moment.

You just got to be, you've got to be sensible about how you do it if you're going to, if you're going to reduce waste and inefficiency. One of the problems in this government has been, it's historically absolutely sort of workaholic about creating legislation. You're having the ex Home Secretary on later on your programme.

In the last decade the Home Office has had sixty Acts of Parliament. That's almost a century's ration if you like. And that creates complexity. Over centralisation creates complexity, it creates rigidity. All these aspects of the Brown government are actually things that make this worse.

ANDREW MARR: And with the terrorist threat, with a lot of people worried about the number of migrants coming into this country, who they are, you're still convinced that all of that can be dealt with without a national database and without ID cards?

DAVID DAVIS: Oh, a national database will make it worse. I mean frankly if you created a national identity register you might just as well take a CD and put it in an envelope and send it to Osama Bin Laden.

That huge honey pot will come under massive attack. Now the FBI, the Pentagon and Microsoft have all had these attacks and been unable to withstand them. So if they can't withstand them what chance frankly the British government given its current level of competence.

ANDREW MARR: All right.

DAVID DAVIS: I'm afraid there are better methods. Using our justice system. Using proper border controls. Simple, conventional methods. Of course you use computers. Of course you use data but you do it carefully and in a targeted manner and not in this panacea for all things approach that the government does.

ANDREW MARR: All right. Just briefly, where have you got to on the 28 days row. Is that one where again you think it's, it's flipping over?

DAVID DAVIS: Well one story that's not made the, the headlines this weekend was a report by Justice, the organisation, the charitable organisation which has pointed out that the United States can get their people to charge, their suspects to charge - in ten terrorist cases they show it, they did the case studies - in forty eight hours. Not 28 days.

And at the moment not a single case has pushed the twenty eight day barrier. A number have been charged on twenty eight days but the evidence gathering has been earlier than that. So I'm afraid there's absolutely no sign there's a re... there's a reason to go for twenty eight days.

And again you asked about Labour back benchers. As far as I can tell, the rebellion last time which I thought consisted entirely of Brownites, is now rock solid. I think the events of the last few weeks have said to them we don't want to go in for this frankly i-liberal, very, I mean traditionally - I grew up thinking the Labour Party's a liberal, small "l" liberal party. And I think a lot of the people on the other side of the House think the same too.

ANDREW MARR: All right, impeccably liberal David Davis thank you very much indeed for coming in and joining us.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

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