Correspondent: After Saddam Tx Date: 23rd February 2003 This script was made from audio tape – any inaccuracies are due to voices being unclear or inaudible 00.00.00 Correspondent Theme Music 00.00.10 Music 00.00.22 John Sweeney If Iraq only had coconut palms, then it wouldn’t be worth fighting over. 00.00.30 John Sweeney But beneath it lies a sea of oil; the second biggest reserves on the planet. 00.00.35 Music 00.00.36 John Sweeney Iraq could be one of the richest countries on earth but instead there’s been a history of war and terror, blood and betrayal. 00.00.46 Music 00.00.59 John Sweeney Welcome to Toyland, Baghdad. 00.01.02 John Sweeney It’s Eid, a holiday festival when Iraqis in Saddam’s capital are taking it easy. 00.01.09 John Sweeney Here, at least on camera, the chorus is that no-one can do it better than Saddam Hussein, that any war is only about plundering Iraq’s wealth. 00.01.20 Man 1 Voice over It’s all about oil and America’s greed for oil. 00.01.26 John Sweeney There’s something about their total adoration for Saddam that makes you wonder. 00.01.33 Man 2 Voice over The people are all with the leader. They love Saddam. Everyone’s a Baathist. 00.01.39 Woman Voice over He’s our father, brother, the water we drink. When we are thirsty, he slakes our thirst. 00.01.48 John Sweeney Other Iraqis, who fled in order to speak out, see it differently. As America plans war they are daring to contemplate a better future for Iraq. But their history with Saddam makes them determined that he must go. 00.02.07 Bayan Jabor No one knows the situation going inside Iraq, what suffering of our people, what suffering of this people, which is suffering along thirty-four years ago when this dictator came in. This is a bloody dictator coming to Iraq. 00.02.24 Title Page After Saddam 00.02.27 Music 00.02.36 John Sweeney This is the Kurdish north of Iraq; protected by American and British warplanes, where they hate the man Iraqis in Baghdad say they love. 00.02.46 John Sweeney In the Presidential election last year, the Baghdad strong man polled a hundred per cent. 00.02.50 Music 00.02.53 John Sweeney Here, Saddam’s rating is zero. In the eighties, when Saddam was still the West’s best friend, he gassed and killed, the Kurds say, a hundred and eighty two thousand people. They cannot understand the peace marches here. 00.03.08 Music 00.03.22 Girl Voice over Strike him because if you don’t he will attack us again with chemicals. 00.03.28 Man Voice over He’s cruel; he’s a tyrant. That’s all there is to it. 00.03.33 Music 00.03.34 John Sweeney To understand why people in different parts of Iraq appear to either love him or hate him you need to understand this country’s history and Saddam’s brutal role in it. Until 1921 it didn’t exist. 00.03.47 Aston JOHN SWEENEY Iraq was created just after the First World War by a stroke of the British imperialist pen. Three peoples were joined together; the Kurds in the north, the Sunni in the middle, and the Shia in the south. 00.04.03 Music 00.04.07 John Sweeney The British, with the help of Lawrence of Arabia, conjured up a monarchy out of a hat and plonked a king on a throne to rule over the three peoples. 00.04.15 Music 00.04.17 John Sweeney Under the monarchy Baghdad was a prosperous place with people getting on in harmony and not a citadel of terror. And the British got first shout when Iraq’s oil started to flow. 00.04.28 Music 00.04.34 Graphic KING FEISAL OPENS OIL PIPELINE 00.04.37 Voice over From the rich oil fields of Kirkuk in central Iraq a thirty inch pipeline was begun in 1950 to take the liquid wealth to the Mediterranean coast five hundred and fifty miles away for worldwide distribution. 00.04.48 Music 00.04.50 Voice over And to mark a great engineering achievement, King Feisal, accompanied by the regent, arrived to open the pipeline. The King turned a wheel to inaugurate the forty-three million pound project. But as the increasing pressure made turning more difficult, the Prince Regent lent his ever-loyal support to his young nephew. 00.05.06 Music 00.05.08 Voice over The Kirkuk fields are expected to yield about twenty-two million tonnes per year. So, a new era of prosperity opens for Iraq bringing further benefits to her people. 00.05.18 John Sweeney Or not, as it turned out. Wealth re-distribution was never a priority but under the monarchy only six people were executed, four Kurds and two Communists. 00.05.30 John Sweeney All that was about to change. 00.05.32 Music 00.05.40 Gunshot 00.05.42 Sharif Ali Bin al-Hussein He was killed at the age of twenty-three when he was young himself and his uncle was the Crown Prince, my uncle. A small unit of the army circled the palace and started to, to, to open fire. 00.05.56 Aston SHARIF ALI BIN AL-HUSSEIN Constitutional Monarchy Movement They were promised safe passage out of the palace to, to leave the country. 00.06.03 John Sweeney That was a gallant mistake? 00.06.05 Sharif Ali Bin al-Hussein Very much so and then this army officer on his own opened fire with a machine gun and then killed the King, the Crown Prince, the King’s grandmother, his aunt and some members of the, of the household staff that were in the group that were leaving. 00.06.21 Music 00.06.23 John Sweeney Regime change in Iraq, even in 1958, was not a pretty sight. 00.06.27 Music 00.06.31 John Sweeney This was what was left of the Prince Regent. 00.06.34 Music 00.06.36 Sharif Ali Bin al-Hussein This led to, directly to the cycle of violence that we see today. 00.06.41 John Sweeney For a brief time Iraq’s three peoples, the Kurds, the Shia and the Sunni, shared power but there followed a series of coups. And then, in 1969, the Arab nationalist Baathist party took over for good. 00.06.57 John Sweeney Saddam, who started out as a Baathist hit man, rose through the ranks to become President. 00.07.04 John Sweeney There were whispers in Baghdad that the new strong man had personally dumped a rival in an acid-bath. Iraq became a republic of fear. 00.07.14 John Sweeney Saddam invaded Iran, a million died. And eleven years later, Kuwait. Throughout all this time any opposition was brutally repressed. Now the times are changing. 00.07.27 Music 00.07.32 John Sweeney This is the new fellowship of the ring; mortal men doomed to defy. Galvanised by the rhetoric from Washington and the hope that Saddam’s overthrow is in sight, the exiled opposition, Sunni, Shia and Kurd, are coming together in open defiance of Saddam. 00.07.51 Music 00.08.02 Hoshyar Zebari I am very pleased to meet you. This would be our first encounter with you for this Iraqi opposition conference. 00.08.14 Aston DOUGLAS FEITH Under-Secretary of Defense We believe that these, these various opposition groups are going to play a role in the future of Iraq if and when the, the people of Iraq are fortunate enough to be free of the Saddam Hussein regime. 00.08.34 John Sweeney If you can’t agree on the seating plan, then you’ve got trouble. There is much that divides this ragbag of hopefuls, laboriously narrowed down now to a council of sixty-five potential leaders. But one thing unites them - their hatred of Saddam. 00.08.49 John Sweeney He’s played Iraq’s divided people against each other, exploiting their differences to his sole advantage. 00.08.56 John Sweeney The Sunni Arab minority, top dogs under the Baathists, may be about to go through a terrible demotion. 00.09.03 Music 00.09.05 John Sweeney The Kurds in northern Iraq have been betrayed so often they fear history might repeat itself. 00.09.10 Music 00.09.12 John Sweeney And the Shia Arabs in the south? The majority people of Iraq, treated like dirt under Saddam, form sixty-five percent of the population. They’ve been betrayed by the West that has left Saddam unchallenged for perhaps too long. 00.09.32 John Sweeney Bayan Jabor is one of the council of sixty-five. He’s a Shia exile whose family remains inside Iraq, which gives him a very personal motive for regime change. 00.09.44 Bayan Jabor He showed my mother and my, another brother and two of my sisters and I saw them in the TV. They are talking and between time to time the Iraqi satellite TV showed my picture and they asked them; ‘where is Bayan?’ My mother was crying, really was crying. 00.10.04 Aston BAYAN JABOR Shia, Iraqi Opposition Committee She said; ‘we don’t know, he left Iraq and he was outside with his family and we have no relation with him’. She say; ‘please I want my son to return back to Iraq to live with us, why he left his country? Please return back through the TV’. 00.10.24 John Sweeney What happens to you if you go back to Saddam’s Iraq? 00.10.29 Bayan Jabor He will divide me in small pieces. He will not kill me directly; I know that very well. 00.10.38 John Sweeney If Saddam can’t get the man, he goes for the family. Bayan has lost thirteen close relatives. The secret police forced Bayan’s brother, still inside Iraq, to try to persuade Bayan to come home. When Bayan said no, the secret police forced the brother to drink something. 00.10.57 Bayan Jabor He told his wife that he have some problems in his, on his heart. Then he stayed in the garden, it was summer, with his son, smallest one Komael, only one years. He was playing with him and then he died suddenly for nothing, really for nothing. He is not political; he was a merchant only. 00.11.27 John Sweeney Saddam’s men killed him because of you? 00.11.29 Bayan Jabor Yes. 00.11.30 John Sweeney Didn’t part of you think I should not, I should stop it because I am endangering my family 00.11.36 Bayan Jabor Maybe, yeah. 00.11.41 Music 00.11.56 John Sweeney Saddam poisons people and he poisons land. 00.12.00 Music 00.12.02 John Sweeney The Marsh Arabs had graced the Middle East since the dawn of civilisation, Shia people who settled between the waters of Iraq’s two great rivers, the Tigris and the Euphrates. 00.12.12 Music 00.12.14 John Sweeney The marshland was fertile and the people created a rich and prosperous society. 00.12.19 Music 00.12.22 John Sweeney Until, that is, they broke with Saddam. 00.12.34 John Sweeney The marsh reed beds were a good hiding place for the Shia resistance. 00.12.39 Gunfire 00.12.45 John Sweeney And Saddam didn’t like that. After the Americans took back Kuwait from Iraq in ’91 they got as far as Basra and stopped. George Bush the first called on the people to rise up. Basra, the capital of the Shia marshland, saw open revolution against Saddam. 00.13.04 John Sweeney The Marsh Arabs took the American president at his word. The city echoed with a cry; ‘God is Great’. And then things started to go wrong. 00.13.16 Man We are afraid from that the American forces they leave to go, to go back home. In that case Saddam will be, shall kill us. 00.13.27 John Sweeney This is why the Americans stopped then pulled back; for fear of something worse than Saddam. These are Shia fundamentalists across the border in Iran. Terrified that the Iraqi Shia might end up like them the Americans left Iraq to Saddam. 00.13.42 John Sweeney Their fears about the Shia were shared by at least one other middle eastern leader. 00.13.48 Bayan Jabor The American, they in touch with us since 1991 after the uprising, they sent some diplomat to my office here. 00.13.57 John Sweeney Did they say sorry? 00.13.58 Bayan Jabor They said we are sorry, what happened, we afraid for you because we think you are belong to Iran Shia and you are Muslims and they say one king in the area he phone us, he phone Mr Bush, the father and he told him the Islamic fundamentals, they are coming. 00.14.22 John Sweeney Instead, Saddam’s men returned. The Shia uprising was crushed; Saddam’s republican guard killing maybe two hundred thousand people. 00.14.33 John Sweeney And over the next seven years the marshes were drained. 00.14.38 John Sweeney The lush water lands, that had been a cradle of civilisation long before the bible was written, was reduced to barren sands. 00.14.49 John Sweeney Saddam didn’t just destroy the Marsh Arab resistance; he wiped out an entire world. 00.15.03 Singing 00.15.08 John Sweeney The evidence of what happened when Saddam put down the Shia uprising remains to be uncovered. In the back streets of Damascus, I met a man who knows something about digging up the past. 00.15.21 John Sweeney The man drawing the map is a tomb raider 00.15.27 Tomb raider Voice over This area here is approximately the site of the mass grave. 00.15.32 Music 00.15.34 John Sweeney The tomb raider eked out a living by robbing archaeological sites. 00.15.38 Music 00.15.43 John Sweeney One day, near the old city of Ur, not far from Basra, he and his friends stumbled on an all-too-modern tomb. 00.15.52 John Sweeney What did he actually see precisely? 00.15.56 Tomb raider Voice over I myself saw over a hundred bodies and altogether with my friends we found many more. We divided the site into different sections. Each of us examined one section. Someone said; ‘ fifty here’. Someone else counted again and found more than fifty in the same area. So we thought that if we dug a bit deeper there would be even more bodies. We reckoned the number would be between a hundred and fifty and two hundred. 00.16.30 John Sweeney Were they men? The dead bodies? 00.16.34 Tomb raider Voice over Yes, they were all men but you couldn’t identify the bodies. Nothing much was left of them. We saw some heads, human skulls shattered with big holes in them, as if the people had been shot in the head. 00.16.49 John Sweeney Marsh Arabs who fought Saddam? 00.16.51 Tomb raider Voice over Yes, they were the ones in the uprising. 00.16.55 Bayan Jabor There are many graves like this, mass graves. It is, it is really a misfortune, it is very difficult on our people to hold on. 00.17.06 John Sweeney Saddam’s war against the Shia didn’t stop in ’91. In Damascus there were more Shia witnesses to the nature of Saddam’s rule. 00.17.17 John Sweeney The father of these children went on the run from Saddam a few months ago. So the secret police came for their mother in her home in southern Iraq and the children too. They tortured her; she could bear that. They tortured her children and that she can’t bear. 00.17.37 Woman Voice over Eventually they brought me my children and I was utterly shocked. They had been beaten up and burnt on the skin. They had been tortured. Within half a day they’d been tortured. The guards said; ‘ok, we’ll leave you be, but we’ll find out if your husband really isn’t around and you really don’t where he is, if so, then we will let you go. You will stay here for one night’. But we stayed one night and then another and the torture continued. 00.18.11 Woman Voice over I told them; ‘ please, just let me see my children. I’ll give you anything you want, just let me see my children. One of my sons has typhoid; he needs medicine. He might die or become an invalid because he has a chronic illness.’ They said; ‘what are you talking about, you are talking nonsense. When they brought him I didn’t recognise him, his eyes had black rings under them, he was a skeleton, as if they sucked out his blood. I said; ‘this isn’t my son; what have you done to him?’ 00.18.51 Woman Voice over I’ll never forgive them and ask God to take revenge on them. I want the Americans to attack them now. I don’t want children to be killed but the regime to be attacked. Even if I could forgive them one day, there are others who would not. 00.19.12 John Sweeney Despite the pain of ordinary people, the Shia leadership are keen to reassure the world that a blood bath won’t happen. 00.19.19 Aston BAYAN JABOR Shia, Iraqi Opposition Committee In Iraq there is really a good community. There are relations between Sunni and Shia, there are, any Sunni can, for example, married any Shia and, and, and the opposite also right for that I think nothing will happen after toppling the regime. 00.19.43 Music 00.19.45 John Sweeney The story of the Kurds under Saddam is no happier than the Shia. 00.19.49 Music 00.19.51 John Sweeney Has Saddam killed any of your own family? 00.19.53 Aston HOSHYAR ZEBARI Kurd, Iraqi Opposition Committee Saddam has killed three of my brothers. One he was poisoned with thallium when he was called for a security office to see the director, and two others were murdered by a prearranged car accident. 00.20.06 Music 00.20.09 Aston 1988 00.20.12 John Sweeney Living with Saddam’s peace has not been easy for the Kurds. Halabja was the only poison gassing the world’s media was able to see. 00.20.20 Music 00.20.25 John Sweeney Kurdish soldiers in the hills survived. Women, children, even pets all succumbed to the poisoned gas. Off camera, Saddam’s Anfal campaign in the eighties gassed and killed tens of thousands. 00.20.40 Music 00.20.43 John Sweeney When the Americans called for Iraqis to rise up in ‘91, the Kurds also obeyed. When the Americans let Saddam off the hook, he crushed their uprising too, as he had done the Shia one in the south and he showed little mercy. Hundreds of thousands of Kurds fled north for the hills. 00.21.01 Music 00.21.04 John Sweeney In makeshift camps, many more perished. 00.21.07 Music 00.21.26 John Sweeney The camps are still here, breeze block shanty towns in what is the world’s second richest oil state. 00.21.33 John Sweeney The Kurds are still being driven from their homes inside Saddam-controlled Iraq to the safety and poverty of free northern Iraq. 00.21.49 John Sweeney This man, with five children to support, has lost his home, his job and his savings. His brother shows the latest refugee from the government of Iraq. 00.22.04 Man Voice over They forced us out. They told me you’ve got to join the people’s army, the Jerusalem army, or become a party member and fight for us and do bad things. I told them I couldn’t do it; I couldn’t do it. I’m a poor man and can’t do that. Later, they told me that they would send me to the Security Committee, the Security Department and maybe God will get me out. No one will see you again. In the morning I thought they were calling me for that when they put us in a car and sent us Erbil. 00.22.42 John Sweeney The determination of the Kurds to be rid of Saddam is intense. They live daily with danger. Last summer we went to this village, just four hundred yards from the front line with Saddam. A shepherd boy, just fourteen, had been shot by Saddam’s troops. His father showed me a picture of the dead boy. 00.23.02 John Sweeney His best friend was with him when he was shot. 00.23.05 John Sweeney Tell me what happened? 00.23.09 Boy Voice over Me and my friend were grazing the cows and playing. We could see the soldiers had come out of their bases. We were far away from the soldiers but they fired at us and hit my friend in the side. He was still alive, we carried him for a hundred metres or so and then he died. 00.23.30 John Sweeney Did he say anything before he died? 00.23.35 Boy Voice over He said; ‘I have no strength left, leave me here’. And then he died. 00.23.48 John Sweeney One year on, things are no less bleak. This is still Iraq but just inside the Kurdish safe haven. Saddam’s men are still four hundred yards from this village. People still fear being shot at whim. 00.24.02 John Sweeney It’s hard to credit that Saddam has built himself a huge new palace in Baghdad while people live here in such dire straits. 00.24.13 John Sweeney The father of the dead boy has but one hope. 00.24.20 Father Voice over If God removes Saddam we want nothing else. Saddam has been hurting us. There is no stone where a Kurd has not been killed, no river where Kurds have not been killed. We do not want this government in any shape or form. 00.24.35 John Sweeney Some people in the west think that the war is a bad thing because many innocent Iraqis will die. What do you think? 00.24.45 Father Voice over As far as I’m concerned, just as long as Saddam is removed, even if half of us die it’ll still be worth it. War’s not good; it’s bad but the guy has killed so many of us and caused us so much damage. In ‘88 he massacred thousands of us for no reason at all. He massacred a hundred and eighty-two thousand of us, all innocent, poor Kurds. We still don’t know where our loved ones lie buried. 00.25.14 John Sweeney Bedtime. When Saddam goes, the Kurds will rejoice. But, the morning after Saddam; how will ordinary people contain their rage at those who helped him? 00.25.28 Aston HOSHYAR ZEBARI Kurd, Iraqi Opposition Committee The attitude, the policy is by the political leadership, is not to take revenge or not to take the law into our own hands. I mean the future of the country is more important. I think the Kurdish role is very vital; it will be a balancing role between the Sunnis, between the Shia, between and a moderate one also. 00.25.54 Music 00.25.57 John Sweeney Not everyone in Iraq has suffered under Saddam. The loyalty of many of the Sunni Arabs has been bought with Iraq’s oil wealth. Saddam’s sect forms the ruling minority with just fifteen per cent of the population. 00.26.11 Crowd chanting 00.26.30 John Sweeney The President has all sorts in what passes for his cabinet; Shia, Kurds, Christians too. But his Special Republican Guards are exclusively Sunni. They, at least, will continue to march in step with Saddam until American bombs suggest otherwise. 00.26.48 John Sweeney Saddam has ordered his Sunni guards; fight to the death for me or the mob will rip you to pieces. Some Sunni officers have fled and are trying to reinvent themselves as democrats. 00.27.01 John Sweeney Has Saddam killed any members of your own family? 00.27.14 Aston WAFIC AL SAMARRAI Sunni, Iraqi Opposition Committee Translator Saddam has killed some of his relatives and his closest friends. The number is more than fifteen persons. 00.27.25 John Sweeney Can he tell me who precisely? 00.27.45 Wafic Al Samarrai Translator I do remember every single one of them but I don’t think I should go into the details of that. 00.27.51 John Sweeney You served Saddam throughout the Iran Iraq war, through the Anfal when many Kurds were killed, through the time when the homeland of the Marsh Arabs was drained and also the counter-revolution against the Shia in which tens of thousands of Shia civilians were killed. Is it possible that you’ve got blood on your hands? 00.28.24 Wafic Al Samarrai Translator Could you switch off the camera for a minute please? 00.28.26 John Sweeney It’s a fair question. 00.28.27 Wafic Al Samarrai No. 00.28.28 John Sweeney It’s a fair question. 00.28.32 Wafic Al Samarrai You told me the programme about what the day after Saddam Hussein. 00.28.36 John Sweeney Yes. 00.28.37 Wafic Al Samarrai It is history. 00.28.38 John Sweeney No, no, no but this is history but how can, for example, the Shia and the Kurds and the ordinary people of Iraq accept you as a potential leader if you have blood on your hands. And I’m not saying that I’m just asking you a question. 00.28.55 Wafic Al Samarrai I will answer you but your question is not ordinary. It’s not normal. 00.29.02 Wafic Al Samarrai Voice over In all the time that you spoke about I was not the Director of Military Intelligence. 00.29.07 John Sweeney So you didn’t torture anyone? 00.29.09 Wafic Al Samarrai Voice over It’s not my responsibility and I never worked one day at military security. 00.29.15 John Sweeney Are you afraid that your people will be massacred the day after Saddam goes? 00.29.23 Wafic Al Samarrai Voice over I’ll tell you one more time. The number of military officers massacred from Saddam’s home town of Tikrit, who were executed or eliminated, their total number is probably more than the total of those officers who have been executed in all the other Iraqi towns put together. 00.29.44 John Sweeney So how does it feel to, to make this man an ally? 00.29.49 Bayan Jabor You know we have no evidence, we have no… 00.29.53 John Sweeney He was, he was the Head of Saddam’s military intelligence 00.29.56 Bayan Jabor Yes but we have no, any documents against him, the Iraqi opposition was very clever to send clever message to these generals that if you join us we will be safe. Maybe you will be one from sixty-five. 00.30.18 John Sweeney The Sunni people are in a terrible trap. Too close to Saddam for comfort for more than two decades, they can only fear what happens next. Even those who helped kill for Saddam, and that means virtually every army officer, are victims too. 00.30.35 John Sweeney The Sunni man I’m going to meet was a colonel in Iraq’s army. After time in Saddam’s torture gulag his body is permanently scarred. 00.30.59 Sunni man Voice over What I saw? My God! We sometimes say how cruel man can be. One cannot bear to see such things; it’s impossible. But what is etched in my mind forever is the shrieking of a woman in the prison where I was. It was a men’s prison, not for women but I heard the scream of this woman, on and on it went and then she stopped. 00.31.35 Sunni Man Voice over I kept hearing people calling for God’s help, but no one did anything. If I show you my toes you will see that the nails have all been pulled out. I had not plotted against the State. I didn’t want to take Saddam’s place, all that happened was my father and mother-in-law left Iraq. 00.32.10 John Sweeney The worst for the colonel was that his pregnant wife was brought in by military intelligence. They punched her in the womb so hard she lost her baby. 00.32.18 Music 00.32.20 John Sweeney The colonel was stationed in Basra in ’91 when the Americans retreated and Saddam’s forces crushed the Shia uprising. The failed revolution started in the suburb of Hayaniya. 00.32.36 Sunni man Voice over There were dead people everywhere, in Hayaniya in particular. People there know that. I served in Basra and I know it well. When people hear my testimony they will get very angry. 00.33.03 Sunni man Voice over This is where the uprising started. They were killed in the street and they were buried here. Many people were buried here. If they thought someone was in the uprising and they couldn’t find him, they would find a relative, a mother, kill her and bury her. Many relatives were murdered. It was horrific, some were buried alive and later the graves were covered up by army bulldozers. 00.33.30 Music 00.33.33 John Sweeney This is the southern Iraqi city of Basra, as seen from space. We are looking for the exact site of the mass grave. 00.33.42 John Sweeney The intersection at the top of the picture is Saad Square, the road to the south is towards Zubayr, and off to the right is the dual carriageway to Hayaniya. The wide central reservation, clearly visible between the two lanes, is the site of the mass grave. 00.33.58 Music 00.34.04 John Sweeney The black history of the Kurds, the Shia and even the Sunni under Saddam haunts the minds of the sixty- five exiled would-be leaders as they gather this weekend for a final conference in Northern Iraq. 00.34.16 Music 00.34.20 John Sweeney Now, with an American-led war looming and the prize of Iraq suddenly in sight, they’re finding themselves courted by big money and big oil, keen to ensure their own interests - after Saddam. 00.34.33 John Sweeney A marriage of convenience is in the making, the victims may soon become the victors and for the past few months a whirlwind courtship has been underway. 00.34.42 Music 00.34.50 John Sweeney There’s no oil in Vienna but there is OPEC, the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries, the body which fixes the price of oil. When it goes up a dollar, the world economy does a fandango. 00.35.03 Music 00.35.06 John Sweeney So everybody hangs on to the words of the OPEC oil ministers. 00.35.10 Music 00.35.25 John Sweeney Ok, this is the guide to the OPEC conference and maybe OPEC knows something that the rest of the world doesn’t. Algeria, there’s a bio of the Algerian oil minister. Indonesia the same, Iran the same. And Iraq? Three lines, no picture. It’s as if regime change, as far as the oil people are concerned, has already happened. 00.35.47 Music 00.35.50 John Sweeney I wanted to find out what part ‘big oil’ was hoping to play in the ‘After Saddam’ game plan. 00.35.55 Music 00.36.00 John Sweeney I asked a leading oil expert what was going on behind the scenes. 00.36.04 Aston RAAD ALKADIRI PFC Energy Oil Analyst I think the Iraqi opposition will be talking to big oil, they’ve made some very sort of large claims about what will be on offer, who will be, who will stand to get it and what kind of terms maybe there. I think that’s a way really for the external opposition to try and enhance their credibility in the eyes of the oil companies and somehow to enhance their credibility politically more generally rather than any initiation by oil companies themselves. 00.36.28 John Sweeney Historically who’s been in there in the last five years? Or who’s got a serious interest in Iraq? The French, the Russians? 00.36.36 Raad Alkadiri In the deals that have been signed, have been signed with Russian firms, Chinese firms and a number of smaller sort of Arab and, and Asian firms… 00.36.43 John Sweeney Busting sanctions? 00.36.44 Raad Alkadiri Not busting sanctions. No one has busted sanctions. They’ve signed deals, no one has actually moved on these deals. 00.36.49 Music 00.36.54 John Sweeney For the Iraqi opposition the betrayals of the past are ancient history. For the first time since ’69 the Iraqi opposition are going places. Perhaps. 00.37.05 Music 00.37.08 John Sweeney Where are you off to now? 00.37.10 Aston HOSHYAR ZEBARI Kurd, Iraqi Opposition Committee I’m off now to Davos, to this World Economic Forum. This is the first time we have been invited as Iraqi opposition and as Kurds 00.37.21 John Sweeney So now you have got a seat at the top of the table? 00.37.23 Hoshyar Zebari I have, in fact, this is for the very first time it is very exciting and it is an international forum. 00.37.29 John Sweeney Doesn’t it make sad that they wouldn’t, they wouldn’t have given you houseroom back in the 1988 when Saddam was gassing the Kurds? 00.37.36 Hoshyar Zebari Of course, absolutely, they would not have even thought of us, or found us on the map not to give us a room. That would have been extremely difficult during the late 80’s to contemplate such a thing. So now we can go and visit the Prime Minister, go to ten Downing Street. I was in Washington last week; the White House was our stop every day. 00.38.08 John Sweeney Can you taste power, the prospect of power? 00.38.10 Hoshyar Zebari Absolutely. Absolutely. 00.38.13 Music 00.38.20 John Sweeney I wanted to see who else was working up an appetite for power. Davos is where big money meets the power brokers to carve up deals. 00.38.28 Music 00.38.30 John Sweeney All the major players were in town. Some old friends. 00.38.33 Music 00.38.37 John Sweeney And the man of the regime change moment. 00.38.40 John Sweeney Have the western oil companies been in touch with you because…? 00.38.42 Hoshyar Zebari They have continuously. 00.38.44 John Sweeney Which oil companies have been in touch with you? 00.38.46 Hoshyar Zebari Well French, American. 00.38.47 John Sweeney Can you give me names? 00.38.49 Hoshyar Zebari At the moment, no. 00.38.50 John Sweeney You’re the first Iraqi opposition leader to say yes to that question, that they’ve been knocking on your door? 00.38.57 Hoshyar Zebari They have. 00.38.59 John Sweeney This is a great opportunity after Saddam falls for the American oil companies to get a big slice of oil. That’s what going on isn’t it? 00.39.07 Hoshyar Zebari Well there maybe an interest of the oil companies and multi-nationals, definitely, for Iraqi vast oil resources, definitely, I mean nobody can deny it but that’s not the only thing 00.39.20 Aston DOUGLAS FEITH US Under-Secretary of Defense The issue is not oil; we are not motivated by oil. The focus of US policy is on the, the dangers connected to weapons of mass destruction that are posed by the tyranny of Saddam Hussein. 00.39.37 Aston JAMES AKINS Former US Ambassador to Saudi Arabia It has everything to do with oil. If we control Iraqi oil and we continue more or less to control Saudi oil then whatever Europe or the rest of the world wants in the field of energy is going to be essentially irrelevant because we will be OPEC, we will be the new OPEC. 00.39.53 John Sweeney That’s not the official line. It’s all about weapons of mass destruction – and don’t mention the oil. 00.39.59 Aston ADNAN PACHACHI Former Iraqi Foreign Minister The dilemma of the Iraqi opposition or the Iraqis in general, is that the American motivations are not the same as the Iraqi motivations but the aims are the same - change of the regime. 00.40.14 John Sweeney There are two sets of meetings going on at Davos; the ones for public consumption, and the ones that aren’t. 00.40.22 Music 00.40.27 John Sweeney Behind very closed doors, the Iraqi opposition met with former US General Wesley Clark to discuss the American presence after Saddam. 00.40.36 Music 00.40.39 Adnan Pachachi They can’ t just go in and come out straight away 00.40.43 John Sweeney Then he made an indiscreet slip. 00.40.47 Adnan Pachachi Well, it depends how long they want to stay. I mean General Clark spoke about eight years. 00.40.55 Music 00.40.56 John Sweeney America staying on in Iraq for eight years would begin to look like an imperial occupation. Washington says it’s planning to zap Saddam to make Iraq safe for motherhood and MacDonald’s apple pie and democracy but there are other reasons. Oil is one. Revenging the humiliation of George Bush the first is another. 00.41.16 John Sweeney Fear of Saddam handing over anthrax to Al Qaeda is the third; perhaps the driving force. If not man’s best friend, George W needs a trusty ally in Baghdad. That could be Ahmed Chalabi, a Shia in a Fifth Avenue suit. 00.41.34 John Sweeney And maybe not. Chalabi was convicted in absentia by a Jordanian court of defrauding millions from a bank. He denies any involvement. 00.41.43 Douglas Feith Mr Chalabi is a, is a very impressive man. He is one of the, one of a number of leaders that we have been talking to in the Iraqi exile community. He has organised conferences over the years that have produced principles that have now been endorsed by the range of Iraqi exile groups for, to serve as the foundation for the creation of a, a democratic government in Iraq if, if the Saddam Hussein regime is eliminated. 00.42.30 James Akins The man is a, is a charlatan; the man is a, is a criminal. He robbed the banks in Jordan and there was a warrant out for his arrest although I have been told that it has been rescinded. I suppose that’s because of American pressure, if that’s true. But he certainly doesn’t have any local support. 00.42.50 Applause 00.42.52 John Sweeney Bank robber or no, Chalabi is in northern Iraq now, with the sixty-five, waiting for the fall of Saddam. Waiting to see if he remains a player. 00.43.02 Music 00.43.06 John Sweeney Now time is running out for the strong man in Baghdad. It would be a terrible irony if, after all these years, Saddam is to be replaced by another general – Iraqi or American. 00.43.18 John Sweeney The Iraqi opposition say they are democrats who will ask their people for restraint and mercy to those who killed for the old regime. 00.43.26 John Sweeney They have suffered much and deserve a chance to prove their worth. 00.43.31 John Sweeney Blood and chaos may well follow the war. But it’s hard to think of a crueller regime than that of Saddam Hussein. 00.43.39 End music 00.43.45 Voice over You can comment on tonight’s programme by visiting our web site at: www.bbc.co.uk/correspondent Credits 00.43.45 Reporter JOHN SWEENEY Dubbing Mixer PHITZ HEARNE VT Editor BOYD NAGLE Graphics Design ZOE BARTHOLOMEW Production Team ALEXANDRA CAMERON SARAH EVA MARTHA O’SULLIVAN AGNES TEEK Production Manager JANE WILLEY Unit Manager SUSAN CRIGHTON Film Research NICK DODD Research BARBARA ARVANITIDIS Web Producer ANDREW JEFFREY Picture Editor MARK COLLINS Producer EWA EWART Filmed & Directed by ELIZABETH C. JONES 00.43.54 Voice over Next on Correspondent how this Texan cop’s undercover drugs sting against one small town’s black residents has exploded into a civil rights scandal. Texas undercover, next Sunday at seven fifteen. 00.44.09 CORRESPONDENT 00.44.10 Editor KAREN O’CONNOR © BBC MMIII 00.44.13 End BBC Correspondent 1 1