Correspondent: State of Denial Tx Date: 24th November 2002 This script was made from audio tape – any inaccuracies are due to voices being unclear or inaudible 00.00.00 Correspondent Theme Music 00.00.11 Band Music 00.00.15 John Sweeney Today’s the day they’re opening the new gasworks. It’s in the middle of the desert, so everything has to be bussed in. 00.00.21 Band Music 00.00.27 John Sweeney Even the boss. 00.00.28 Band Music 00.00.31 John Sweeney It’s party time - Saudi Style. 00.00.33 Band Music 00.00.35 John Sweeney No women. 00.00.36 Band Music 00.00.39 John Sweeney No wine. 00.00.42 John Sweeney Not many laughs. 00.00.46 John Sweeney Crown Prince Abdullah runs the country. He and some seven thousand Al Saud princes are the guardians of Wahhabiism, the sect of Islam as austere as the desert air. 00.00.57 John Sweeney Dissidents say the billions from gas and oil have fuelled greed and corruption, that the House of Saud will do anything to keep its plate piled high. 00.01.06 Music 00.01.10 John Sweeney There are some mouths the kingdom cannot stuff with gold. 00.01.13 Music 00.01.15 John Sweeney Osama Bin Laden 00.01.16 Music 00.01.19 John Sweeney Relatives of the nine eleven dead. 00.01.21 Music 00.01.23 John Sweeney And victims of the House of Saud itself. 00.01.25 Music 00.01.30 Title Page Saudi Arabia STATE OF DENIAL 00.01.42 John Sweeney Crime didn’t used to pay in Saudi Arabia. Adulterers can lose their heads, thieves their hands, literally. The effect was to make the kingdom one of the safest places in the world. 00.01.52 Music 00.01.55 John Sweeney The magnet of easy money has drawn millions of foreign workers, many from the west, to the kingdom. But you know what they say about all that glitters. 00.02.04 Music 00.02.06 Aston RON JONES It was luxurious. I mean there, there was everything there for you, you didn’t actually need to go out of the compound. It had swimming pools, Jacuzzis, steam rooms, gym, restaurants, gardeners and the lifestyle was sumptuous, it really was. I worked hard but I was paid well. 00.02.30 John Sweeney Ron was a tax accountant, working for a big Saudi company. He didn’t drink alcohol, he lived quietly, he obeyed the rules; he was the model ex-pat and then one day in March last year, he went shopping. 00.02.43 Ron Jones I was standing outside the bookshop waiting on my friends and something happened. I don’t know what it was and I was thrown and I don’t remember anything after that until I woke up in the ambulance and I had been scorched down the left side of my body. 00.02.59 John Sweeney Ron was about to discover another face of the House of Saud. 00.03.03 Ron Jones I was confused; I didn’t know what had happened. I know the doctor was trying to put a drip in to my arm. 00.03.11 Ron Jones And I later found out that there had been an explosion. 00.03.18 John Sweeney As Ron lay concussed from his blast burns in hospital, he heard a row with raised voices, some in English, outside in the ward. Then the police came for him. They told him they were taking him home. 00.03.30 Music 00.03.32 Ron Jones And I noticed that we were going in the opposite direction to where I lived. And you know I started to get a bit anxious. And I said look, I just wanted to go home. And they, they, you know, five minutes, five minutes. And we came to this big wall. 00.03.54 Music 00.03.57 John Sweeney It definitely wasn’t home. Ron had been arrested by the Saudi Secret Police. He was driven past armed guards into a high-security compound; then led into a bare cell. 00.04.08 Music 00.04.09 Ron Jones And they handcuffed me and then they made me sit on the floor and they shackled my feet. 00.04.16 Music 00.04.20 Ron Jones And I’m asking them; why, why are you doing this, I know nothing. I, I was injured in an explosion and why, why are you questioning me? 00.04.37 Music 00.04.40 John Sweeney Ron was still wearing a hospital gown. But the victim had become a suspect. 00.04.47 Ron Jones And I was told to lift my feet up. And I asked him again, I said; why? And he said; just lift your feet up. And I did and the next minute he literally, he just swung this cane onto the soles of my feet. And then he screamed at me; don’t move your feet, don’t move your feet! And he did it again and the pain was absolutely excruciating. He said; now you’ll tell me the truth. 00.05.27 Music 00.05.29 John Sweeney Ron was hung from a bracket for so long he screamed in agony. The torturer beat him on his palms and the soles of his feet, night and day, day and night. 00.05.39 Ron Jones He wasn’t caring where he hit me. It was wherever the blow landed. And then he started to sing. And I, I have this thing in my head that he was singing ‘ring a ring a roses’. But he was singing and the blows got fiercer and it actually knocked my blindfold off slightly and I could see him, out of the corner of my eye and he was smiling. 00.06.23 Ron Jones And I remember saying to him; I’ll tell you anything you want, just please don’t hit me again. 00.06.31 John Sweeney After sixty-seven days they released Ron, thanks to pressure from the British. 00.06.37 John Sweeney Eventually he returned home, his pay stopped, no apology given. 00.06.43 Artist Quite dark, the brows, very dark? 00.06.47 Ron Jones No, not, not, not black. 00.06.51 Artist Was there a gap in the middle or did it go all the way over? 00.06.53 Ron Jones There was a gap. 00.06.54 Artist There was a gap. 00.06.59 John Sweeney Now the gentle tax expert is trying to recreate the face of the man who haunts his nightmares; the man who beat him so badly that he still walks in pain. 00.07.09 Ron Jones Yes, yeap. 00.07.10 John Sweeney Slowly the face of a state licensed sadist takes shape. 00.07.14 Artist Did the cheekbones strike you at all? 00.07.16 Ron Jones I think the cheekbones were slightly further back, you know, if, sort of, giving it a sort of prominence at the… 00.07.27 John Sweeney This is a portrait of the torturer. He called himself Lieutenant Colonel Abdul Aziz. 00.07.31 Ron Jones Yes. 00.07.33 Artist Is that the man you remember? How does it feel? 00.07.35 Ron Jones Yeah, the eyes. I remember the eyes. The mouth and the goatee aren’t quite right but that’s as close as I can remember it. But I think the eyes are definitely as I remember them. 00.07.54 John Sweeney Physically Ron is now out of this man’s reach. 00.08.03 John Sweeney But seven other westerners are not so fortunate. They too confessed to planting bombs. 00.08.09 John Sweeney Two years ago this week came the first in a series of small car bombs. It killed British businessman Christopher Rodway. 00.08.19 John Sweeney So who was behind the attacks? Western bootleggers said Interior Minister, Prince Naif. No Saudis were to blame, he claimed. Westerners were killing their rivals in the illegal alcohol trade then their guilt was paraded on Saudi TV. 00.08.36 John Sweeney One of the killers of Christopher Rodway was, according to Saudi Television, Glaswegian Alexander, or Sandy, Mitchell who did run a drinking club in his flat, illegal but not murder. 00.08.50 Sandy Mitchell I confirm and confess that I was ordered to carry out an explosion here in Riyadh… 00.08.57 John Sweeney Is this a freely given confession or a man reluctantly stumbling over a text he must say or else? 00.09.05 Bill Sampson Two days later Mr… 00.09.07 John Sweeney Bill Sampson was the second alleged killer to confess. 00.09.11 Bill Sampson I admit and acknowledge that I participated with Mr Alexander Mitchell, in setting off an explosive device on the vehicle belonging to Mr Christopher Rodway, a British national. 00.09.24 John Sweeney The Canadian has refused visits by diplomats. There are now grave concerns about his health. 00.09.31 John Sweeney Both were arrested after Belgian paramedic Raf Schyvens was brought in. He’d been picked up after giving first aid to victims of one of the bombs. 00.09.40 Raf Schyvens My role would be to actually place the explosion under the car, which would be later on appointed to me. 00.09.49 John Sweeney Three arrests but the bombs, in Riyadh and elsewhere, continued in the spring of last year. One by one, five more Britons were rounded up, including Ron Jones. Perhaps because he was a professional working for a big firm and he didn’t drink, they let Ron go. 00.10.06 John Sweeney But not Jimmy Lee. Saudi TV said he blew up other ex-pats with a bomb in an orange carton. 00.10.13 John Sweeney And Les Walker from the Wirral. 00.10.16 John Sweeney And Jimmy Cottle from Manchester. 00.10.19 Jimmy Cottle …to make an explosion in Al Khobar. 00.10.22 John Sweeney A seventh alleged bomber, Pete Brandon, never made a TV confession. All seven were found guilty and are still in prison. Five men got long sentences; Mitchell and Sampson, death. 00.10.35 John Sweeney For the Saudi Seven, the dream of making easy money in the desert kingdom has turned into a nightmare reality of an Arabian prison cell. 00.10.46 John Sweeney I wanted to find out why two men may die and seven are in jail, at the hands of what is supposed to be our close ally. Were they the bombers? Or had they been tortured to confess? 00.10.59 Ron Jones King Fahd highway going south of Riyadh and you pass the Ministry of the Interior building, which is affectionately known as Space Mountain. 00.11.11 John Sweeney Space Mountain? 00.11.12 Ron Jones Yeah because it looks like Space Mountain in… 00.11.14 Sandra It looks like a flying saucer. 00.11.16 John Sweeney Right. 00.11.18 John Sweeney Tortured accountants make good witnesses. 00.11.20 Music 00.11.23 Ron Jones And as you come out of the final underpass you effectively hit daylight again and you have to turn left. And as you turn you will see the television tower and it’s the actual television centre. 00.11.41 John Sweeney Ron not only recalled his ordeal but also the route to the torture centre. It isn’t marked on the Riyadh map so Ron drew one for us. It wasn’t easy. We couldn’t exactly ask for directions. 00.11.53 Ron Jones You go up, further up and then you’ve got to turn right again to come down into the main road that’s leading to the prison. 00.12.05 John Sweeney Behind this wall lies the Mabaheth Interrogation Centre on Abdul Aziz Ibn Fahd Al Mu’ammar Street. 00.12.12 Ron Jones And you come down this road, and it’s a white greyish wall and there are gates leading to the prison. But I was actually detained behind the big metal gates to the left. 00.12.25 Music 00.12.28 John Sweeney The moment you enter the gates you’re guilty, so you’re tortured, so you sign a confession in front of the investigating judge – the Khavi. If you don’t sign they torture you some more. 00.12.38 John Sweeney With no access to the outside world you’re in a closed loop. It’s a confession factory. 00.12.47 Aston JOHN SWEENEY This is Ron’s map; this is a map of Riyadh. The two maps tally. So the place where Ron was tortured is just over there. And just to nail our location this is a GPS, a satellite fixing system. We’re at north twenty-four degrees thirty-eight dot six nine eight. East forty-six degrees forty, dot nine o three. 00.13.14 John Sweeney This is the secret location that the House of Saud doesn’t want to own up to. Westerners, Saudi dissidents, they torture anyone they please. It makes for unquiet nights. 00.13.24 Music 00.13.25 Ron Jones I would hear the screams of people upstairs being tortured and that was awful because you knew what they were going through. And you knew that it was your turn next. Your turn would come to be back up in that room. 00.13.41 Music 00.13.42 John Sweeney The screams Ron heard may well have come from some of the Britons whose confessions the Saudis broadcast. 00.13.51 John Sweeney So I went to see the defence lawyers of the men who’d confessed. They’d only got to see their clients after they’d been found guilty. The lawyers are working on an appeal. 00.14.00 John Sweeney Is there any forensic evidence linking any of these men to any of the bombs? 00.14.04 Sheikh Salah Al Hejailan I haven’t seen any. 00.14.06 John Sweeney Not a single shred of forensic evidence? 00.14.07 Sheikh Salah Al Hejailan Not a single shred, no. 00.14.09 John Sweeney Is that good? 00.14.11 Aston Sheikh SALAH AL HEJAILAN Defence Lawyer Well, usually when you have a confession of that nature and you have a statement by another colleague of them confirming the entire scenario, usually those kind of evidence look somewhat irrelevant at the time. 00.14.27 John Sweeney In a case where there is no forensic evidence whatsoever, you’ve only got a confession, the context in which that confession was given becomes crucial, it’s not a question of sensationalism, it’s critical. 00.14.36 Sheikh Salah Al Hejailan Yes. Right, right. 00.14.40 John Sweeney If Ron Jones said he was tortured surely it’s possible that your clients were tortured too. 00.14.50 Sheikh Salah Al Hejailan We have stated in our appeal the fact that they were subject to torture. We said that in an extensive way actually. I mean we said that we explained it in detail. 00.15.02 John Sweeney It said that the men did these bombings, killed these people because they were falling out of over alcohol bootlegging. 00.15.09 Sheikh Salah Al Hejailan The economic figures of this entire operation of alcohol is so insignificant that would not justify such a planning or targeting each other. 00.15.19 John Sweeney The alcohol is a red herring? 00.15.20 Sheikh Salah Al Hejailan Yes. 00.15.21 John Sweeney It’s a red herring? It’s not an important factor? 00.15.23 Sheikh Salah Al Hejailan No, it’s not because they say the value of the entire operation is, is not significant in, in a financial sense, in monetary sense. 00.15.33 John Sweeney The seven didn’t understand the trial process, in Arabic, and still don’t know that they’ve already been sentenced, two of them to death. 00.15.42 John Sweeney All of the men are now in a second prison, Al Haier, east of Riyadh. 00.15.46 John Sweeney This is the road to Al Haier Prison where the seven westerners, the five Brits, the one Canadian and the Belgian have been held, some of them for almost two years. 00.15.56 John Sweeney Think of any prison in the West and then think much, much grimmer and you’ve got Al Haier. 00.16.04 John Sweeney And still the bombs continue, each bomb more evidence pointing to their innocence. This June a British banker Simon Veness was killed by yet another car bomb. 00.16.14 John Sweeney Perhaps the Saudi Seven jumped over this wall, planted the bomb, then jumped back again. Or perhaps someone else is planting the bombs. 00.16.25 John Sweeney Could it be supporters of the most infamous Saudi in the world? 00.16.28 John Sweeney Four years ago Osama Bin Laden called for westerners to leave Saudi and for ‘Jews and Crusaders to be killed’. 00.16.35 John Sweeney For the House of Saud to concede that Bin Laden supporters are killing westerners in Saudi would be to admit that they’re losing their absolute grip on power. 00.16.45 John Sweeney So the seven are now trapped; their innocence directly conflicting with the House of Saud’s self-interest. And that in Saudi Arabia is not a good place to be. 00.16.56 John Sweeney So I raised the possibility with the lawyers that the killers are not westerners but Saudis. 00.17.02 John Sweeney Isn’t the whole problem here that the true culprits for these bombs are Islamic extremists, people who are, think along the same lines as Osama Bin Laden, that these are the people who have been planting the bombs, not westerners? 00.17.18 Aston Dr AHMED ALTUWAIJRI Defence Lawyer There’s absolutely no evidence or any indication for this, you know, claim. I think as far as our case is concerned, we are basing our defence on the basis that no sufficient evidence, independent evidence has been provided, that our clients have retracted from their confessions but to point the finger at any other entity without any real evidence, without real worthwhile evidence would be improper and unfair. 00.18.01 John Sweeney It’s fact for most people in the world that Osama Bin Laden was behind September the eleventh. It may not be great comfort for the five Britons in jail that one of their defence lawyers believes Osama’s been framed. 00.18.14 Dr Ahmed Altuwaijri As a lawyer, as a person who had dealt with the law for a long time, none of the evidence that has been presented so far has convinced me that he has been responsible for what happened. 00.18.26 John Sweeney Who was responsible for September the eleventh in your view? 00.18.30 Dr Ahmed Altuwaijri Only God knows who was really behind this huge and horrible incident but if we are to make a guess I think most of the evidence points at the Mossad much more than any other entity. 00.18.46 John Sweeney That Mossad, the Israeli Secret Service, is behind September the eleventh is a very common conspiracy theory in Saudi. It’s a society in mass denial. 00.18.57 John Sweeney Officially, in public, Osama Bin Laden is a traitor, disowned by his family, which still runs Saudi’s richest building corporation. Unofficially, behind closed doors, Osama Bin Laden is a hero. 00.19.09 Singing 00.19.18 John Sweeney The main mosque in Jeddah was built and is maintained by the Bin Laden Group. The family is still at the heart of the Kingdom’s establishment but it is Osama who embodies a hard core Islam that fuses with a new and terrifying Saudi nationalism. 00.19.34 John Sweeney For many the House of Saud has been far too cosy with the West. To keep their heads, some Saudis stay on side with the ruling princes by fudging the issue. 00.19.45 John Sweeney The Imam at the Bin Laden funded mosque does not even accept common ground about Al Qaeda’s biggest kill. 00.19.53 John Sweeney Fifteen of the nineteen hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. Why was that? 00.20.02 Aston Sheikh AHMED HUSSEIN AL MORJAAN Imam of Jeddah central mosque Voice over I’m not sure whether fifteen Saudi nationals were really involved or not. But, if it happened to be true and their involvement was proved by solid evidence, then we need to look carefully into this matter. The real question has been ignored. There is a security problem in America and they should have looked at that. If Saudi involvement is proved beyond doubt, it means that there must have been insiders who helped the perpetrators carry out such actions. This is what I know. What I don’t know is if fifteen Saudis were really involved or not. 00.20.45 John Sweeney The whole world believes that fifteen out of the nineteen hijackers come from Saudi Arabia. How can you dispute it? 00.20.58 Sheikh Ahmed Hussein Al Morjaan Voice over Well, I don’t know about that. And what’s odd is that no concrete evidence has been produced. And a lot of people doubt that Saudi nationals were on board. But if they were, they couldn’t have done it without help from inside. The picture’s confused. The whole affair is not clear enough yet and the motives for it are not clear either. 00.21.31 Clockwork toys 00.21.43 John Sweeney At the Soukh in Jeddah we wanted to find out what ordinary Saudis thought about Osama, September the eleventh and the House of Saud. 00.21.56 John Sweeney Our minders from the Ministry started checking people’s ID before they went on camera; frightening them rigid. 00.22.06 John Sweeney Under this all too obvious scrutiny ordinary Saudis closed down, anxious to say nothing that conflicted with the party line. 00.22.16 John Sweeney The only people who would say openly what many Saudis think but dare not say to a foreign TV crew were a group of women pilgrims from Syria. 00.22.27 John Sweeney What do you think to Osama Bin Laden – is he a good man? 00.22.35 Woman 1 Subtitles He’s defending a cause. He’s defending his country and the truth. 00.22.39 Woman 2 Subtitle He’s defending the Muslims. 00.22.41 Translator They believe that he’s defending the Muslims and he’s a good man. 00.22.45 John Sweeney Do they, do you agree with him? 00.22.51 Woman 2 Subtitles May God protect him! And strengthen him against his enemies. 00.22.55 Translator She says that she prays and hopes that God protects him and makes sure he is victorious against his enemies. 00.23.03 John Sweeney So you support Osama Bin Laden? 00.23.07 Woman 2 Subtitle Yes, of course. 00.23.09 John Sweeney People in the West say he’s an evil man? 00.23.15 Woman 1 Subtitle No, he’s not evil – why? Woman 2 Subtitle No, on the contrary. 00.23.17 Translator She says no he isn’t, why? 00.23.19 Woman 2 Subtitles He’s a man who’s fighting injustices. He’s defending the Palestinian cause. 00.23.25 John Sweeney He killed all those innocent people in New York. 00.23.30 Woman 1 Subtitles But aren’t the Israelis attacking Palestinian children and old people? 00.23.35 Woman 2 Subtitles That’s injustice! They’re killing children for no reason. 00.23.39 Translator Subtitles But September 11th was an injustice too. 00.23.43 Woman 2 Subtitles But the injustice in Palestine is greater! 00.23.46 Woman 1 Subtitle We want peace everywhere. 00.23.54 John Sweeney It’s a harsh and unforgiving land. What isn’t barren desert is rocky and bleak. The oil billions haven’t turned people’s minds in Asir Province in the south west. 00.24.05 John Sweeney The region has a medieval mind-set. This is Osama country. 00.24.12 John Sweeney The twin towns of Abha and Khamis Mushayet. More than half of the fifteen Saudi hijackers came from round here. We weren’t allowed to film in the mosque or even to enter the town itself. 00.24.25 John Sweeney The nearest we could get to was the camel market on the edge of town. Cruelty comes with the territory. 00.24.34 John Sweeney Again, people closed down when we asked their view of Bin Laden. 00.24.40 John Sweeney Our government minder, off camera, in Arabic, urged people; don’t mention Osama 00.24.48 Minder Subtitles He wants to know what people here think about Bin Laden. I’ll just say that you don’t have any idea… so we don’t get into that discussion. OK. 00.25.01 Man Subtitle We know nothing about these things. 00.25.07 John Sweeney Osama is popular here, more so than the government would care to admit. But for a Saudi to tell us that would be to commit treason, an offence not dealt with lightly here. 00.25.17 Singing 00.25.25 John Sweeney Amongst some of the faithful it is whispered, Osama earns more respect, he is more austere, more Islamic, than what some perceive as a corrupt, greedy and pro- western House of Saud. 00.25.36 John Sweeney The regime does its best to appear to maintain Wahhabi values, banning cinemas, theatres, alcohol and churches and deferring to the conservative clerics who uphold the faith. 00.25.47 John Sweeney The regime constantly needs to keep up the veneer of control, lest it be seen to weaken. 00.25.57 John Sweeney So censorship is meat and drink to the House of Saud. The Saudi newspapers cover the comings and goings of the top princes with deference and only vaguely hint at what’s really going on. 00.26.08 John Sweeney Sometimes the censor wins the clash with modernity. And sometimes he doesn’t. 00.26.15 John Sweeney You can read the foreign papers in Saudi Arabia but to address cultural sensitivities the censor has stepped in. Decolourtage has been blotted out here and here and over there. And this fashion model, she’s got an extra bit of decolourtage and two new pantaloons. It’s images that the censors seem concerned about, not words. And look what they’ve done to Marilyn Monroe. 00.26.47 John Sweeney The state is trying to hold back the twenty-first century but for how much longer. 00.26.54 John Sweeney Black marker pens don’t work in deep space. 00.26.58 Music 00.27.04 John Sweeney More and more Saudis are getting satellite dishes. And they can see all this and Osama too, reducing the censor’s best efforts to a feeble hypocrisy. 00.27.15 Music 00.27.23 John Sweeney For the sake of control and tradition the House of Saud keeps women frozen in a state of gender apartheid. 00.27.30 John Sweeney This is a Saudi Roedean. 00.27.32 John Sweeney These posh girls can vote and campaign but only for the college council elections. The moment they leave as grown up women, they will become legal and political infants under the charge of their male relatives. 00.27.47 John Sweeney The paradox is all of these girls have been to America or Europe and lived life differently. The most obvious things are not possible if you’re a woman in Saudi. 00.27.58 John Sweeney Is it a problem, to any of you, that you can’t drive, you’re not allowed to drive? 00.28.03 Girl 1 No, it’s not allowed to drive here at all. It’s the law. 00.28.09 John Sweeney Is that because women can’t drive properly? 00.28.12 Girl 2 No but I think it’s better like women can’t do drive because like she’s the queen. She has her own drive; she don’t have to look for a parking like she’s the queen. 00.28.20 John Sweeney Does anybody disagree with that? 00.28.22 Girl 3 Not everybody can afford a driver here and I don’t want to depend, if I have like three cars downstairs I don’t want to sit and be waiting for a driver or my brother or my father to drop me. I feel handicapped. I just, if, this country’s perfect, I have no problems with it but if it was just driving I would be very much happier. 00.28.43 Girl 4 It’s not a major problem; it’s like a luxury ok. Make, make, make some of your situation or so probably easier but it’s not a major problem. 00.28.51 Girl 3 I think if every woman can do this around the world so can women in Saudi, we’re not like made out of special clay or something else or flowers… 00.29.00 Girl We’re special. We’re special in our country. 00.29.02 Girl 3 Definitely but then if every other woman can do it so can we. All women are same. 00.29.07 Girl 4 …special, why should we… 00.29.10 Girl 3 Other Islamic countries have driving. 00.29.13 John Sweeney The only girl who bucked the trend was not from Saudi Arabia but India. 00.29.22 John Sweeney The geological fault lines within Saudi society would not matter to the outside world, were it not for oil. 00.29.29 John Sweeney Saudi Arabia sits on three quarters of the world’s known reserves. No other country in the world is blessed with such good fortune. 00.29.44 John Sweeney Every day, four or five tankers ship a tenth of the world’s oil from this Saudi port. But the bonanza has been squandered by the House of Saud. In 1980 the average income was twenty-one thousand dollars. Today it’s seven thousand. 00.30.01 John Sweeney Not that the oil’s going to run out anytime soon. 00.30.05 John Sweeney This hi-tech wizardry is a three-D map of oil wells under the sand; enough, geologists say, to last another hundred years. That’s a big reason for the west to keep on side with the House of Saud. 00.30.20 John Sweeney That may help explain why the British government appears to be so craven towards Saudi Arabia. 00.30.26 John Sweeney But image does matter to the princes. 00.30.29 Music 00.30.30 Aston Saudi advert for American TV 00.30.30 Voice over In the war on terrorism we all have apart to play. One country has been an ally for over sixty years… 00.30.38 John Sweeney The Saudi government’s been spending big PR bucks to get across its message. 00.30.43 Music 00.30.44 Voice over A partner in investigating more than one hundred and fifty suspected terrorist accounts. And a force for stabilising oil prices during this time of war. 00.30.53 John Sweeney They want to show they’re committed to the war against terror. 00.30.56 Music 00.30.59 John Sweeney But the PR doesn’t square with the reality. Investigators working on a mass lawsuit by the relatives of the nine eleven dead are astonished that one company in Jeddah hasn’t been closed down. 00.31.14 John Sweeney These papers here are a digest of the US lawsuits. They allege that the company based in this building here sent money through a series of cover companies to the Al Qaeda network operated by Mohammed Atta. The company’s called Mushayt for Trading, let’s go and ask them. 00.31.36 John Sweeney German police raided Mohammed Atta’s base in Hamburg, from where he plotted the nine eleven attack and discovered a money trail leading back to Mohammed Zouaydi, reportedly a co-owner of Mushayt for Trading. 00.31.47 John Sweeney I want to talk to Mr Mohammed Al Said Mushayt. 00.31.55 John Sweeney The company had moved. This was now a dress shop. 00.31.58 John Sweeney …three years ago. Where are they now? 00.32.07 John Sweeney Mushayt for Trading, a furniture import export business, is now across town. 00.32.15 John Sweeney There’s your boss, this is the flow of money through Spain, through Germany to Mohammed Atta controlled by Osama Bin Laden. The Mushayt for Trading establishment is the conduit for money to Al Qaeda. That’s what the American class action on behalf of the victims of September the eleventh says. And what is the response of Mushayt for Trading to this allegation in the US court papers? 00.32.43 Man I’m sorry I didn’t know about this but… 00.32.45 John Sweeney Perhaps someone should. As well as the nine eleven link, money went from here to Zouaydi in Madrid and from there on to an Al Qaeda cell in Indonesia – a connection to the Bali bomb. 00.32.55 John Sweeney The specific allegation in the US court case is that your company was a conduit for Al Qaeda. 00.33.02 Man I don’t know. 00.33.09 John Sweeney In any other country you’d expect a company with such links to Al Qaeda to be closed down but not it seems in Saudi Arabia. 00.33.17 John Sweeney Thank you. 00.33.18 Man 2 But if you want to advertise our kind products in some BBC publishing I will be, it will be… 00.33.29 John Sweeney It’s a generous offer but one we must decline, thank you. 00.33.32 Man 2 I see. 00.33.34 John Sweeney We have repeatedly asked Mushayt for Trading for a comment addressing the allegations; we haven’t received a reply. 00.33.40 John Sweeney There is serious evidence connecting senior company figures with terror. 00.33.45 Man 2 …see them, if you want. 00.33.47 John Sweeney We will be in touch, thank you. 00.33.49 Man 2 Thank you very much. 00.33.49 John Sweeney Thank you. 00.33.50 Man 2 Nice to meet you. 00.33.52 John Sweeney There’s no such evidence against Ron Jones. One year on he’s still receiving treatment for the injuries he suffered. 00.34.02 John Sweeney The Parker Institute in Copenhagen is a leading centre for the diagnosis of torture. 00.34.07 Doctor Falanga is a torture where the torture victim is beaten on the soles of his feet with blunt instruments, sticks, cables, whatever and long-term it does not show any physical signs that’s why we’re sitting here, looking for evidence of the torture because the feet look normal. 00.34.31 John Sweeney But they are not. 00.34.34 John Sweeney Using ultrasound technology, the same that enables a mum-to-be to see her baby in the womb, the doctors can tell whether Ron was tortured and how brutally. 00.34.45 John Sweeney The technology reveals what the eye can’t see – lasting damage under the skin. 00.34.52 John Sweeney The doctors in Copenhagen are shining a light into the darkness of a Saudi torture cell. 00.35.01 Aston BENTE DANNESKIOLD- SAMSØE The Parker Institute, Copenhagen Our conclusion of this examination is that Ron Jones has been through torture and he has been tortured on his feet and hands for a very long time, to a very high degree of torture. 00.35.21 John Sweeney The Copenhagen results are backed up by a Home Office pathologist in London, who stated that their findings both independently and objectively corroborate Mr Jones’s allegations. 00.35.37 John Sweeney If Ron was tortured to confess then we have to ask have the other seven been tortured too? 00.35.45 John Sweeney If so, two men, Sandy Mitchell and Bill Sampson, may end their lives here, thanks to a travesty of justice. 00.35.57 John Sweeney The locals call it ‘chop-chop square’. Chopping people’s heads off in public is fine by the man who’s going to be the next Saudi ambassador to Britain. 00.36.07 Aston Prince TURKI-AL FAISAL AL SAUD Ambassador-designate to the UK We do not consider the punishment of beheading as either abhorrent or, or against human rights. Why? Because it comes to us from divine law. And the Kingdom operates under divine law; the Shariyah. The Shariyah is the word of God. And the punishment for death according to the Shariyah and the practices of the Shariyah is beheading. 00.36.37 John Sweeney What about beating on the soles of the feet? 00.36.39 Prince Turki-Al Faisal Al Saud Even that as punishment for certain crimes is, it comes to us from the divine law. 00.36.46 John Sweeney So that’s ok? 00.36.48 Prince Turki-Al Faisal Al Saud Absolutely. 00.36.49 John Sweeney Such extreme punishments make a fair investigation and a fair trial all the more essential. 00.37.00 John Sweeney If you had one question to give to a Saudi Minister, a Saudi official about this, about what you went through, what would you say? 00.37.09 Aston RON JONES I would ask them, why are your torturing people? Why is it necessary to torture innocent people in your country? Give them fair access to lawyers; give them their legal rights. Everybody’s entitled to that. Everybody. 00.37.36 John Sweeney Time to put Ron’s question to Prince Saud Al Faisal, Saudi Arabia’s Foreign Minister. 00.37.42 John Sweeney Does torture happen in the jails of Saudi Arabia? 00.37.45 Prince Saud al Faisal No. 00.37.47 John Sweeney Are you sure of that? 00.37.48 Prince Saud al Faisal We have, not sure of that only but we… 00.37.51 John Sweeney So were these men tortured? 00.37.52 Prince Saud al Faisal …it should be a problem. No, I’m telling you they were not tortured. 00.37.55 John Sweeney How do you know that? 00.37.56 Aston Prince SAUD AL FAISAL Foreign Minister Because I know our legal system and I know the assurance of the government officials who have made that and if they have told the, the judge that it is, they have been tortured he would have stood against the government. 00.38.12 John Sweeney The seven’s confessions were accepted as freely given evidence by the investigating judge, known in Arabic as the Khavi. 00.38.20 John Sweeney There is another man who says he’s been tortured in a Saudi Arabian jail. His name is Ron Jones. He’s a Scottish accountant. He says he was tortured so cruelly that he confessed to planting a bomb which actually blew him up and that’s his claim. However, a British forensic pathologist… 00.38.38 Prince Saud al Faisal People in prison will, will, will claim many things… 00.38.41 John Sweeney Indeed, his claim is backed up… 00.38.43 Prince Saud al Faisal I take my information from, from the Khavi and… 00.38.48 John Sweeney Hs claim is backed up… 00.38.49 Prince Saud al Faisal I’m not here under questioning for a crime that was committed and you’re not a Khavi either. 00.38.55 John Sweeney No, I’m not. 00.38.56 Prince Saud al Faisal But we are trying to come to terms with a difficult issue. Why would anybody torture anyone? 00.39.03 John Sweeney To, to get a, to get a confession. 00.39.04 Prince Saud al Faisal I mean, why, why would Saudi Arabia go under this fantastic story of making these accusations? 00.39.16 John Sweeney Some people say it’s because, to hide the fact that the bombs are being planted by Islamic extremists but… 00.39.23 Prince Saud al Faisal But why would we hide it if Islamic extremists have bombed places in Saudi Arabia and they have been announced? 00.39.30 John Sweeney Well let’s talk about evidence and let’s talk about proof. 00.39.33 Prince Saud al Faisal You don’t have the evidence and you don’t have the proof… 00.39.36 John Sweeney Well, hold on a second. Ron Jones says he’s been tortured and there are experts in the West who know about torture. One of them is a British forensic pathologist and he’s written an expert opinion and it says the findings therefore both independently and objectively corroborate Mr Jones’s allegations of having his, had his palms and soles repeatedly beaten. This man says Ron Jones was tortured. 00.40.02 Prince Saud al Faisal I have been seeing the evidence the so called experts put in front of British courts about the same thing, about police brutality, which one side says that it has happened and the other side says that it doesn’t happen and they are experts. 00.40.21 John Sweeney This man… 00.40.22 Prince Saud al Faisal So interpretation by experts, just because he calls himself an expert, is not the, the word of the Koran or the bible. 00.40.32 John Sweeney Thus far, the Saudi authorities have yet to produce in public a single piece of forensic evidence that links any of these men who are currently in jail to any of the bombings. We have another man, Ron Jones, who says he was tortured and two lots of experts, one in London, one in Copenhagen say this man was tortured, in a Saudi Arabian prison. 00.40.51 Prince Saud al Faisal We are running in, in circles. I mean if we’re going to continue on… 00.40.55 John Sweeney Well, I’m just, I’m not running in circles, I’m putting evidence to you which, which is… 00.41.00 Prince Saud al Faisal Well put the evidence to the Khavi. 00.41.02 John Sweeney This is one further piece of evidence. This is the man Ron Jones says tortured him. His name is Lieutenant Colonel Abdul Aziz. This is the man who tortured him. Two sets of experts in England and Denmark… 00.41.16 Prince Saud al Faisal They identified him too? 00.41.18 John Sweeney No, they say he was tortured. Are you going… 00.41.20 Prince Saud al Faisal By this man? The experts also said that this man… 00.41.22 John Sweeney No, no, no. 00.41.23 Prince Saud al Faisal They have somehow a magical way of knowing by the drawing that he tortured the man? 00.41.29 John Sweeney That’s not the point. The point is are you going to do anything to investigate this? 00.41.32 Prince Saud al Faisal Well I could hold the piece of paper in your face and tell you, take this to the Khavi. He is the man in charge of the trial. If the lawyer thinks that his, his man was, was tortured he should take it to the Khavi. 00.41.50 John Sweeney We’ll do that and we’ll certainly give our evidence to the United Nations experts on the independence of the judiciary. But the point is, sir, that you said and you’re the Foreign Minister of Saudi Arabia, there’s no such thing as torture in Saudi Arabian prisons and experts disagree with you. 00.42.05 Prince Saud al Faisal This is, I don’t care what the so-called experts say. I know what is happening in my government, I know how my government is, is being run, I know what instructions all officers in the government are about torture and things like that. And… 00.42.23 John Sweeney The experts are wrong? 00.42.25 Prince Saud al Faisal To my mind they are absolutely wrong not just wrong. 00.42.29 Music 00.42.33 John Sweeney The day before we arrived in Saudi Arabia yet another bomb killed a westerner, here in this Riyadh suburb. 00.42.40 John Sweeney An unnamed Briton has been arrested and remains incommunicado. 00.42.44 Music 00.42.46 John Sweeney It’s entirely possible that he is being tortured. 00.42.49 John Sweeney The Interior Ministry, here, was quick to claim that the eleventh bomb, like all the others, had nothing to do with Saudis. 00.42.56 Music 00.42.58 John Sweeney The price of oil and arms deals mean that the British government will continue to appease the House of Saud. 00.43.04 Music 00.43.05 John Sweeney But if that means turning a blind eye to torture and terror, then that price is far too high. 00.43.12 John Sweeney As Prince Saud suggested, we gave our evidence on the torture of Ron Jones and the portrait of the man who did it to the Interior Ministry. 00.43.21 John Sweeney So far, no reply. 00.43.24 John Sweeney The state of denial endures. 00.43.25 End music 00.43.33 Voice over You can comment on tonight’s programme by visiting our web site at: www.bbc.co.uk/correspondent Credits 00.43.33 Reporter JOHN SWEENEY Camera FRED SCOTT PAUL MUNGEAM VT Editor BOYD NAGLE Dubbing Mixer CLIFF JONES Graphic Design STEVE ENGLAND Production Team ALEXANDRA CAMERON CHARLOTTE DAVIS SARAH EVA MARTHA O’SULLIVAN Production Manager JANE WILLEY Unit Manager SUSAN CRIGHTON Film Research NICK DODD Web Producer ANDREW JEFFREY Research CLAIRE McFALL Picture Editor ROBERT MOORE Producer GUY SMITH Deputy Editor DAVID BELTON 00.43.41 Voice over Next week a Correspondent Special – on board the USS Abraham Lincoln, an American warship in the Gulf. Six thousand men and women are training for war; that’s at nine pm next Sunday. 00.43.55 CORRESPONDENT 00.43.56 Editor KAREN O’CONNOR © BBC MMII 00.44.00 End BBC Correspondent 1 1